[pike]

I'm sorry to have to post this here being as I am a complete newbie (First lesson scheduled for next week at LMFP). I have been lurking and asking a few questions and everyone on the board has been great and patient. So I was saddened to read the pissing contest that is going on on the General Forum between BK and DJ. I don't know who is right. I don't care who is right. It sounds more like a personality contest than anything else and is a complete turn off to the sport. I'm glad I had been reading the board for a while before all that crap came up. If that had been the first thing I had read on the forum, it would have been the last. If you want to continue to grow the sport, get guys like that to keep their beef off the board. JMHO
George

[Radwhacker]

Agreed - that's why I've voted to "bury" both threads.

[noman]

It runs parallel to the presidential race .Hey rad i wish you could have made the Oktoberfest, man it was a hoot!!!.

[HangDiver]

[Radwhacker]

[sg]

Its a two edged sword. Guys like Jebb rely on peoples complacency to stay in power.

But if you raise a stink, then it turns off the new potential pilots.

If you dont raise a stink, the he gets to continue to strangle HG in the san diego area. Opening Torrey to more HG access would be HUUUUGE for hang gliding growth in san diego. But Dave does a great job of keeping people away from HG an Torrey and bait and switching them with PG.

This isnt a popularity contest and you dont have to read much at all to realize Jebb forces a very unfair situation by controlling a tax payer site and locking out all HG tax payers below the ADVANCED rating, while at the same time allowing brand new PG students to fly there. Its discrimination, pure and simple. Those are clear facts and not opinions.

Bob K has been working to end that, and he's clearly the better RD choice in my opinion by a long shot.

[Lobido]

Neither has posted their mug. Off with their heads.

[Holger]

I agree, it's sad. Of course we could all just ignore the local squabble (send it to the basement) and think happier thoughts. If there wasn't the thing about the harassment and individual pilots denied flying at the local site. Most of us don't know what is really going on down there, but let's just assume BK's allegation are founded. That's a serious case and he should have the platform to seek help. I found his postings here civil and mostly to the point, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. As I said before, I come from a country (Germany) where people have looked the other way while others were victimized....I can't do this again, even if it disturbs my little peace here.

Holger

[Holger]

[gbx5150]

[bobk]

Welcome to the Forum Pike, and welcome to the sport of hang gliding!! I've personally tried a variety of airsports, and I think you've picked the best of the bunch - although flying anything is fantastic. : )

I'm of mixed feelings here. I agree with Pike that we do want to keep a civil tone on the front page, but I also agree with SG and Holger that there needs to be a way to inform pilots about what is happening. I particularly like Holger's reference to other evils that have been allowed to exist simply because men of good faith did nothing.

The first thread, by bradgeary, was somewhat informative since it was posted by someone who had obtained Mr. Jebb's message. Mr. Jebb's message was certainly inflammatory, and it's not clear if the posting was intended to smear me (as if it were true) or if it was intended to demonstrate Mr. Jebb's tactics (and smear him). Either way, I am somewhat apologetic that I had to reply using the "L" word, but I've had that kind of mud thrown at me before, and it doesn't take long before it sticks. David Jebb, for example, has accused me of turning him in for his violations, and that is something that I did not do. At first I thought I'd just sit back to see if the truth would come out, but it never did. That was a year and a half ago, and I still meet people who think I turned in the Jebbs. So I've learned that these kinds of accusations need to be met head on - and sooner rather than later.

The second thread was started by one of David Jebb's employees, and I don't think she's even a hang glider pilot. She is young and impressionable, and I'm sure she thinks that David Jebb is wonderful. That's what she's been told, and that's what she believes. It's unfortunate (but typical) that David Jebb - who is our current Regional Director - wouldn't address this forum, but instead have one of his employees do it for him. Now bradgeary suggests that she wasn't put up to it, and I don't know if that's true or not, but I'll leave that determination up to each of you. Do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge?

The big deal here is that David Jebb has kicked out two pilots from their favorite flying site - one for a year and the other for life. He's done this because he cannot control his temper, and because both pilots had been asking for fair treatment for themselves and our sport. And on top of that, he's our own Regional Director - who is supposed to be charged with keeping us in the air and not on the ground. Imagine how you would feel if one person could unilaterally and arbitrarily ban you from your favorite site for a year or for life and wouldn't even give you a written reason. Maybe I've been an American too long, but I've just come to expect more due process than that - especially at a City-owned flying site that is leased to David Jebb at no cost.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I'm also open to suggestions on where else we can go to get help. So far, hanggliding.org has been the best venue that I've found for rallying support and hopefully improving the situation. But other suggestions are welcome.

Bob Kuczewski
President - Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club
Candidate - Region 3 Director

[Pete B]

Bob,
How did you find us here, we were hiding
There should be a seperate politics section. I come to the forum to have a laugh. I have to say that Bob would get my vote. At least he talks to us!
Pete

[bobk]

[HGXC]

[Nibs]

[sg]

[knumbknuts]

If two threads like that on a BB would turn you off from flying, then you are probably not going to have the fortitude to get through your hang 2.

Now, if someone posts here about wanting to learn and gets called a cockgobbler (just watched office space again), then I can see that as a legit reason for them not to take up the sport.

As far as Torrey, I wonder how many HG pilots we don't get because they go there looking to learn HG and get turned to PG.

Almost happened to me. One of my favorite pics of my wife and me is at Torrey a few years ago. I went in and got a bunch of information, all about PG. I was more inclined to HG, having seen more of that, but was semi-planning to learn PG because that was all they taught at Torrey. Fortunately, my brother got me to take a tandem with Rob and the rest is histo.

Our sport has to stand up to a lot of counter pressures, usually developers. However, when that counter pressure is a USHPA RD, that's something we should fight. That's something we should do something about.

Would that hang gliding were all thermals, beer, and fluffy bunnies. Sadly, its extensive use of limited land makes it an automatically controversial sport.

Deal with it. Burying your head in the sand an praying for world peace isn't going to fix the most visible flying site on the West Coast.

[day dreamer]

..

[Windlord]

[pike]

Actually, I made the commitment to fly back in 1972 when I made my first HG flight. It's just taken a few years to get back around to it. That was long before HangGliding .org existed so no ammount of negative posting will put me off.
And anyone that knows me would tell you I am not put off by confrontation. It has been my experience though, that most conflicts are best resolved by the individuals involved. I do live in the real world though and I know that is not always possible. But I have found it is always best resolved by involving the fewest number of people possible rather than inviting the world to put in their two cents.
I also have some limited experience with the use of public land. I don't know the details of the land use permit at Torrey, but there is some public official that is ultimately responsible for the equitable use of public land. Conflict over this land makes him look bad to his superiors and it is in his best interest to see that the issues are resolved. That can give you leverage. Just a thought.
While I appreciate your desire to draw attention to the issues involved, you have to accept the potential downside of doing so on the "Front Page". That is what my post was about. Again, JMHO.
George