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Nibs
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:25 am    Post subject: Legal issues with landing out in XC Reply with quote #1   
I read somewhere that under FAA rules, if you go XC and have to land in someone's field, it is perfectly legal. You can't hang out there after landing without permission, but you can at least land there and then get off the property as quickly as possible. I guess it is treated as an "emergency" landing under FAA law or something?

I have NO idea if what I read/heard was true but am wondering if anyone can validate or invalidate this?

Thanks!
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CHassan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
Landing in a State, or National park, could lead you in to trouble. Landing at the 50 yard line during the super bowl, will get you in trouble. Landing on a Military base, will get you in trouble!

However landing in someone's back yard, or field provided there is no crop damage, will normally get you a warning the first time.

If the land owner comes out, always start off with "Sorry to intrude", or "sorry to land in your yard, but....."
You can't see "No Trespassing" Signs from the air.
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INIT4FUN
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
International law states that.........any aircraft that needs to make an emergency landing may do so,anywhere possible.So basically when you do land on an irate property owners land be very apologetic,be nice,state that if it were up to you,you would have rather not land there at all.Let it be known that all you want to do is get off his land as soon as possible.Offer to carry your glider off the property and pack up off his land if possible.Try and land as close to a road as possible.If so,get off the fenced private land as quickly as possible.Instruct your ground crew (if the owner is not happy,even if they are happy),not to drive off any road or track onto pastures.Law of the land.Leave it how you found it(this refers to locked or open gates).If Police are involved all you need to say is that you were having difficulties,all be it conditions,or safety concerns with the glider and you took "emergency action due to safety concerns"".Let your ground crew know where you are.Let the owner see that you have people who know where your at.Fake it if you have to Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
Dunno the rules stateside, but as i understand it here in the UK, there's no such thing as trespass from the air...(obviously they'll just rape you for being in controlled airspace yadda yadda yadda...)

So you're free to land out whereever you need to if it's an emergency.

If however you land, and then leave the area (field for arguments sake), to find out where you are or whatever... you then can't just walk back to your glider, as you can trespass on foot.

So should you need to landout, pack down your wing, then leave the field in one trip.

Also, you can be fined for any damage you cause in the event of your landing out - i.e. damage to crops etc. thumbsup
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
Thanks for the replies. One of our sites may get shut down because the guy who owns the bailout LZ has been calling the police lately when people land there. It truly is a bailout LZ and you are only supposed to land there if you can't make it to the primary, but lately everyone (myself not included) has been landing there because they are trying too hard to pull off low saves as opposed to making the primary LZ a main goal.
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CHassan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
That is a different story! If the land owner has made it known you are not to land there, and you do, then you are opening yourself up for fines!
1st time is free, but after that you are responsable for keeping you butt off his land!
There would be a bunch of sites opened back up, if you could get away with landing where you have been told not to!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
Yeah, unfortunately I know Crying or Very sad But this incident got my brain thinking about what rights I would or would not have when I do start going XC which is why I asked the question. Also, *I* have not been warned directly so it's still technically a valid bailout LZ for me (once) Mr. Green I've never had to land there yet and doubt I will unless I hit ungodly sink all the way out. I sure wish the other pilots would not have landed there so much.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
Don't do it.....He told "pilots" he does not want you guys (meaning all HG pilots) to land there....respect his wishes or pay the price..(I would be pissed if this was me and you guys had that attitude)...he might have special grass he grows there that he charges $20 a blade for...ya never know
Just make it a no-fly zone and put up a little (or big) map (Google Earth lets you color and print) showing pilots what field NOT to ever land in....
(people get greated with shotguns in their faces when they do that, or just shut down sites, neither are good in my (log)book).
my $.03
D
Nibs wrote:
... Also, *I* have not been warned directly so it's still technically a valid bailout LZ for me (once) Mr. Green ....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
CHassan wrote:
That is a different story! If the land owner has made it known you are not to land there, and you do, then you are opening yourself up for fines!
1st time is free, but after that you are responsable for keeping you butt off his land!
There would be a bunch of sites opened back up, if you could get away with landing where you have been told not to!


Chassan... there is a dif between ethics and law.... see INIT4FUN. He happens to be totally right... You can legally (which is the question proposed) anywhere as long as you claim it to be Emergency...

-S

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
Dievhart, I'm not going to push it with the field owner... I was more asking as a general question. This specific incident brought the issue to my mind. I've made every effort not to land there and so far never have, but if it comes down to a situation where I'm either in the trees or I have to land in a guy's field who I know doesn't want people landing there, I'm going to land in the field and get off as fast as possible. In THAT situation, I want to know my rights.

At some point (probably in a few months when he cools down), a group of us are going to knock on his door and see what we can do about the situation. I haven't heard promising things, but perhaps if we can get a liability waiver and offer him some money, he'd change his mind. It's worth a shot anyway. People have been using this field as a backup LZ for more than 20 years.
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miguel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
INIT4FUN wrote:
International law states that.........any aircraft that needs to make an emergency landing may do so,anywhere possible.


The problem is that, legally, a hang glider is not considered to be an aircraft.

A hang glider does not have the right to land anywhere and as soon as you touch the ground you can be considered a trespasser.

Be polite and respectful to landowners.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #12   
miguel wrote:
INIT4FUN wrote:
International law states that.........any aircraft that needs to make an emergency landing may do so,anywhere possible.


The problem is that, legally, a hang glider is not considered to be an aircraft.

A hang glider does not have the right to land anywhere and as soon as you touch the ground you can be considered a trespasser.

Be polite and respectful to landowners.


Perhaps in the US, but in the UK the opposit applies.

As for international air rules, gliders have more rights of way than motorised forms of air transport.... i'd imagine the same applies in terms of landing out too...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
Miguel, are you sure about that? It goes against everything I have heard. If so, this is great info and is the real reason why I made this post... I want to get to the bottom of it!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
Strikes me as very backwards that a glider would take a lower classification in terms of rights than say a Cessna.

If you can land out in a cessna, i'd imagine you can land out in a glider/hangglider.

I know that's certainly the case on this side of the pond.

What does the FAA say about it?
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DocSoc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
miguel wrote:
INIT4FUN wrote:
International law states that.........any aircraft that needs to make an emergency landing may do so,anywhere possible.


The problem is that, legally, a hang glider is not considered to be an aircraft.

A hang glider does not have the right to land anywhere and as soon as you touch the ground you can be considered a trespasser.

Be polite and respectful to landowners.


Sorry to dispute this with you Miguel but we are regulated by FAR 103 an FAA first! Introduced in 1982....

Sorry but we DO fall under the rule and law of emergency situation...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
DocSoc wrote:
miguel wrote:
INIT4FUN wrote:
International law states that.........any aircraft that needs to make an emergency landing may do so,anywhere possible.


The problem is that, legally, a hang glider is not considered to be an aircraft.

A hang glider does not have the right to land anywhere and as soon as you touch the ground you can be considered a trespasser.

Be polite and respectful to landowners.


Sorry to dispute this with you Miguel but we are regulated by FAR 103 an FAA first! Introduced in 1982....

Sorry but we DO fall under the rule and law of emergency situation...



2nd that

Emergency rules do apply to us as well as some extra regulation as not being able to fly over busy or congested areas. This is obviously understated here but we have allot of regulations we must adhere to by the FAA.



FAR Part 103 Ultralight Vehicles

SOURCE: Docket No. 21631, 47 FR 38776, Sept. 2, 1982, unless otherwise noted.

Subpart A - General

§103.1 Applicability.
This part prescribes rules governing the operation of ultralight vehicles in the United States. For the purposes of this part, an ultralight vehicle is a vehicle that:

(a) is used or intended to be used for manned operation in the air by a single occupant;

(b) Is used or intended to be used for recreation or sport purposes only;

(c) Does not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate; and

(d) If unpowered, weighs less than 155 pounds; or

(e) If powered:

1. 1. Weighs less than 254 pounds empty weight, excluding floats and safety devices which are intended for deployment in a potentially catastrophic situation;
2. 2. Has a fuel capacity not exceeding 5 U5. gallons;
3. 3. Is not capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight; and
4. 4. Has a power-off stall speed which does not exceed 24 knots calibrated airspeed.

§103.3 Inspection requirements.
(a) Any person operating an ultralight vehicle under this part shall upon request, allow the Administrator or his designee, to inspect the vehicle to determine the applicability of this part.
(b) The pilot or operator of an ultralight must, upon request of the Administrator, furnish satisfactory evidence that the vehicle is subject only to the provisions of this part.

§103.5 Waivers.
No person may conduct operations that require a deviation from this part except under a written waiver issued by the Administrator.

§103.7 Certification and registration.
(a) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to certification of aircraft or their parts or equipment, ultralight vehicles and their component parts and equipment are not required to meet the airworthiness certification standards specified for aircraft or to have certificates of airworthiness.
(b) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to airman certification operators of ultralight vehicles are not required to meet any aeronautical knowledge, age, or experience requirements to operate those vehicles or to have airman or medical certificates.
(c) Notwithstanding any other section pertaining to registration and marking of aircraft, ultralight vehicles are not required to be registered or to bear markings of any type.

Subpart B - Operating Rules

§103.9 Hazardous operations.
(a) No person may operate any ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons or property.
(b) No person may allow an object to be dropped from an ultralight vehicle if such action creates a hazard to other persons or property.

§103.11 Daylight operations.
(a) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except between the hours of sunrise and sunset.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, ultralight vehicles may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset or, in Alaska, during the period of civil twilight as defined in the Air Almanac, if:
(1) The vehicle is equipped with an operating anticollision light visible for at least 3 statute miles; and
(2) All operations are conducted in uncontrolled airspace.

§103.13 Operation near aircraft right-of-way rules.
(a) Each person operating an ultralight vehicle shall maintain vigilance so as to see and avoid aircraft and shall yield the right-of-way to all aircraft.
(b) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in a manner that creates a collision hazard with respect to any aircraft.
(c) Powered ultralights shall yield the right-of-way to unpowered ultralights.

§103.15 Operations over congested areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle over any congested area of a city, town or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.

§103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within an airport traffic area, control zone, airport radar service area, terminal control area, or positive control area unless that person has prior authorization from the air traffic control facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

[Doc. No. 23708, 50 FR 9259, Mar. 6, 1985]

EFFECTIVE DATE NOTE: By Amdt. 103-4, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17 1991 §103.17 was revised, effective September 16, 1993. For the convenience of the user, the revised text follows.

§103.17 Operations in certain airspace.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

[Doc. No 24456, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17 1991]

§103.19 Operations in prohibited/restricted areas.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in prohibited or restricted areas unless that person has permission from the using or controlling agency, as appropriate.

§103.20 Flight restrictions in the proximity of certain areas designated by notice to airmen.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle in areas designated in a Notice to Airmen under §91.143 or §91.141 of this chapter unless authorized by ATC.

[Doc. No. 24454, 50 FR 4969, Feb. 5 1985, as amended by Amdt. 103-3, 54 FR 343311, Aug. 18, 1989]

§103.21 Visual reference with the surface.
No person may operate an ultralight except by visual reference with the surface.

§103.23 Flight visibility and cloud clearance requirements.
No person may operate an ultralight vehicle when the flight visibility or distance from clouds is less than that in the table found below. All operations in Class A, Class B, Class C, and Class D airspace or Class E airspace designated for an airport must receive prior ATC authorization as required in §103.17 of this part.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
Regardless. If have you a choice between landing in a green field or brown one, pick the brown one. Your XC tip of the Day :-)

John
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miguel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
If you look through the 103 rules, there is no mention of any right to land anywhere in an emergency.

I asked the question to someone who is familiar with aviation law and was told that the emergency landing land anywhere concept is not valid. Once you are on the ground, you are subject to whatever rules are for that piece of property.

As an aside, a few years back, a airplane lost power and landed intact in a farmers field. The farmer refused to allow the airplane owners to remove the aircraft. The airplane stayed on the farmers field for years and the owners were unable to get it. It was finally salvaged for metal.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: No land zone Reply with quote #19   
Find out what his concerns are FIRST.

Do not offer him money. You are then putting him at risk for liabilty.

Try contacting USHPA and get the waiver we sign and the recrectional law showing that HG/PG is listed

We had someone in Indian Valley ask we not land in his field. We asked what his concerns were and it was liablity. We sent him a letter, the waiver we sign from Ushpa and the rec law. We never heard from him again. It is rare to land at this field but it is nice to have an option.

In the same area we HAD a bail out field called Tweeten's. The general rule WAS not to launch if you think you are going to land there. He wanted us sign waivers no big deal. He was nice enough to let us it as a bail out zone but NOT as the main LZ. Which you do not want this as a main LZ. It is where the thermals are generated from. BUT if we did not have Tweenten's as a bail-out we would not have a flying site. There is no other safe LZ's if you hit massive sink at launch you will not make it to the valley.

This has since changed he sold the land to the kids camp adjacent to his field and they LOVE US. They like it when we land there. They do not care if horses are there or not. They say the horses just have to get used to it. Their major complaint about us when we yell obscenities coming in for a landing with kids watching but sometimes you just can not help it. Shocked

Arm yourself with knowledge and talk to the land owner.

Good luck!

Meanwhile, get as many pilots on board not to land there if they can help it.

Carm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: No land zone Reply with quote #20   
Skyhighwoman wrote:
Their major complaint about us when we yell obscenities coming in for a landing with kids watching but sometimes you just can not help it.


That's hilarous!!!
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