Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject: Chickens, Land Owners and, . . . ? |
 #1 |
I wanted to respond to a couple of Mark Frutiger and Linda Salamone's last (?) critical comments as posted to my "Individual Pilot vs Site Insurance" thread. I've elected to put it here so that it doesn't add unnecessary and unneeded controversy to the Front Page.
| tiger12 wrote: |
| wingspan34 wrote: |
| Every owner of animals has an obligation of care for those animals. In extreme cases an animal owner can face criminal charges if they neglect their animals. In this case, is leaving your pet chickens to roam free and unprotected, negligent? Probably not criminally so. But a reasonable and knowledgeable owner of livestock has an understanding of the inherent threats that can, might and or WILL endanger their animals. I'd go so far as to say they have an OBLIGATION to know such things - and to act accordingly. If I looked I could probably find the NYS Agricultural law that says just that. Any farmers out there who can verify this concept? |
Do I have this correct? You accept responsibility but you want to find the NYS law that holds the landowners responsible for your dog killing their chickens? |
No, Mark you don't have it "correct". But I'll try to explain it again. First off, I actually went and found a NYS law that pertains. Here's a best match:
| Quote: |
| § 355. Abandonment of animals. A person being the owner or possessor, or having charge or custody of an animal, who abandons such animal, . . . is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars, or by both. |
Now, when the land owner left her chickens (unprotected) to go for her horse back ride, was she "abandoning" her chickens? Probably not in any legally relevant way. After all, she was only leaving them for a short(?) time, not like she was going away for a week or a month, or longer. But still, here's a definition of abandonment that seems fairly relevant:
| Quote: |
| Abandon Definition: leave someone who needs or counts on you; leave in the lurch; "The mother deserted her children" |
Change this very slightly and you get:
[To] leave animals who need or count on you; leave in the lurch; "The woman deserted/abandoned her unprotected chickens."
The whole basis of the above quoted law is the presumption that an owner of livestock has an obligation to properly care for their livestock - to not walk (or ride) away and leave them to some unprotected fate - like being killed or injured.
And like parents who leave their infant children in a closed car, in the summer, . . . exactly WHEN, in time, does LEAVING them in the car for 5 minutes - or 30 minutes - become the deciding factor in proving serious negligence?
But I guess we can assume that chickens have less value that human children (unless maybe they're your pets?).
In the case of this land owner's chickens, however long she was gone, it was long enough to result in a PREDICTABLE visit from one of MANY potential predators that NORMALLY and COMMONLY populate the area. That the predator actually involved ended up being my dog is seriously more of a fluke than anything.
But my main point here is that, at the moment the landowner-wife decided to leave her free ranging chickens and go off for a horse back ride, she also, absolutely, abandoned her protective roll regarding those chickens. The first thought in her mind should have been, . . . "What if a fox or a coyote or large feral cat or bobcat (or, even less likely, an HG pilot's dog) comes along?"
I don't want to be harsh, but didn't she value them enough to put them back in their coop? Obvious answer: No.
In fact, the day of the incident, she actually mentioned, to me among other people, that "I usually put them back in the coop" when she couldn't watch over them.
So, Mark, I didn't go looking for a NYS law "that holds the landowners responsible for [my] dog killing their chickens". I looked for a law that gives support to the livestock owner having an OBLIGATION under the law to maintain reasonable (protective) care over their livestock - to not abandon them - to the threats of known or unknown predators.
* * *
Hey, I'm sure the landowner/wife is a fine person. She didn't mean to leave her chickens vulnerable to attack. But, the very sad fact is - SHE DID JUST THAT.
And in my case, I'm a nice person too. But, the difference is, I didn't know there were chickens to get attacked, OR that my dog might attack them. Plus, a history of prior common behavior had been established by club members. That being that EVERYBODY - who brought dogs there (including Linda (gottafly), Mark's long time girlfriend) - ALWAYS let their dogs wander freely at the site.
| tiger12 wrote: |
| As I said in capitals in my previous post, it was not the incident but your actions afterward that are the problem. They persist still. |
Mark, this is the heart of the issue, isn't it.
The day of the incident I apologized to the landowners. I made public (over the web and in person) apologizes to most, if not all, club members. Those apologies were honest and heart felt.
I intended to make the situation better, and to take responsibility for replacing the chickens, but guess what? Moritz, the RAF club president (or were there more BOD members involved?) disrespected me by telling me to NOT fulfill my personal obligations toward the land owners. I wasn't to offer to buy them new chickens - or anything else.
Moritz told me that I should/must allow the club to "handle" the issue. I took that, to a large degree, as a clear indication that Moritiz (and/or the RAF BOD) had decided, (wrongly) that I wasn't adult enough(?), or reasonable enough(?) to handle the damage which my own dog had done. Comments like "We don't want you to screw things up even more." gave me all the clue I needed in that regard.
And here's another side you may not have given thought to:
Chickens died. I regretted that I played some part in that. I didn't want the chickens to die. Part of my regret for the loss of any life includes, considering what might be done in the future to avoid a similar loss of life. In valuing the life of these innocent animals and regretting their demise, I thought about all the things that contributed to their death. I didn't selfishly limit my view of the accident simply to my dog finding loose chickens. I thought about the BIGGER picture!
One thing I wanted to (or did?) propose was helping the land owners in building a better chicken coop or larger fenced in roaming area. Doing this would have kept any new chickens safer. Good and positive idea, no?
Not according to RAF leadership. Their best idea - I should just shut up and stay out of things. So who cares if the next flock(?) of chickens gets killed too? That's real caring and forward thinking, isn't it.
Lastly (I think):
There's the idea that what the land owners thought and felt about the chickens dieing was more important than the chickens that died. Well, I can understand this point to some degree. After all, these are nice friendly fellow human beings and they were grieving.
Both Linda and Mark have accused me here of furthering these people's grief by being insensitive. Well, this is just BS.
At the time of this incident, Linda made me believe that the land owners were included (unknown to me) in the yahoo group where I posted some particular comments. Comments about the land owners better protecting their chickens (so, something similar didn't happen again!). This was in line with me (and maybe the club) helping to build these people a protected area for the chickens, as I describe above.
Well, it ends up the land owners were NEVER members of the group list. But their neighbor the sale plane pilot was a member. And he was a member because he is a friend of Mark and Linda's. See, Mark used to (or still does) fly sale planes at the airport in the town below this launch site. The sailplane pilot noticed my post and got offended FOR his neighbors. The land owners themselves NEVER saw or read my comments - so they could not have been offended.
And as far as their being able to "search" for, or "Google" my comments, well, . . the old Yahoo group required (still requires) a person to be a member in order to read any posts (Look here. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RochesterAreaFlyers/ See any messages? )
So, you see (Mark and Linda) your claims that my comments made the land owners feel disrespected is just untrue. And my reasons for making those comments had to do with ideas that might ultimately benefit the land owners in regard to any FUTURE chickens they might attempt raising.
And guess what, campers? Last fall, a few months after the chicken incident, Linda (gottafly) told me that the sailplane pilot (neighbor to the land owners) had told her (and Mark?) that the land owner's NEW chickens had been attacked again - by some other local predator! Linda figured this would make me feel better (regarding my ideas about offering to help better protect the poor chickens?).
In conclusion of this post:
I don't know where this foolish mess is going, or how it got to this point. I'm just doing my best to clear away the BS before it smothers all common sense and decency.
 ?
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
|
Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
#3 |
Well, you know you said it Linda, but it was like a half whisper, at the time. Like you didn't want anyone else to hear it. So, fine, you can deny it. Obviously, it's damning enough to make you look bad. We wouldn't want that now would we? Or, perhaps you were lying to me when you said it. Then, certainly, I too would be lying if I repeated it. Twisted.
And then, . . . you enter my private life and attack my status of being unemployed. What a LOW blow. But that's how you RAF Thugs work isn't it?
So, in response, . . . in connection with YOUR employment, . . .How many animals do you intentionally give cancer to each year. How many do you kill and dissect - or just disect while still alive? What kind of pain do you (and your research bosses) inflict on how many defenseless creatures?
Sure, it's all to help save human life - but it involves the destruction of animal life, doesn't it? Any chickens involved?
My dog (on my part, accidentally) killed 6 chickens last year. How many animals died in your intentional and purposeful hands last year? Or perhaps, they all just live happily ever after?
Perhaps now you'll tell us, that all you do is feed the poor beasts.
If you see the need for this BS to continue Linda (or Mark) the next thing I'll post is . . . . (why give it away?) . . . . I wonder how Hang gliding.org members will view THAT?
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
|
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
