[sg]

[gtpowell]

SignOnSan Diego.com

[gtpowell]

[brad]

gtpowell,

Well, that was an earfull. I am totally unaware of the city requesting anything.
What you dug up may very well be true. Believe it or not, I don't spend my days searching the public record for anything. When something is brought to my attention I do my best to respond. If you ask around, I think you will find that I am a very straight foreward person. I prefer to cut through the BS and get down to the facts. That being said, I have to ask you what your relationship to Bob Kazinski is? You come across like his spokesman. What is your interest in Torrey Pines other than wanting to fly there? No offence intended, but I like to know the motives of the people I deal with.
Bob K. has made it clear that he wants to be the new lease holder. His actions have pissed off a lot of pilots. I hear about it all the time. He has every right to persue the lease and say whatever he wants to. In the end, if he is not successful, the damage he may cause in this persuit may be hard to undo.
I think the tactic of pitting the hang gliding community against the paragliding community is stupid and destructive. Like it or not, we are all pilots that belong to the same org. What is bad for one is ultimately bad for the other.
Much has been said about the Jebbs. Some true, some not true. I have a long history with the site and have seen the best and the worst. Aside from being PG'er centric, the site is run better now than at any point in the past 15 years. That is a buisness decision the Jebb family have made that allows the site to stay open. Hang gliders are welcomed and the great conflict that some would have you believe simply does not exist. There will always be some sort of conflict when two different groups vie for the same space. It can be worked
out so all benifit. Reasonable people can make reasonable decisions. When it degenerates to name calling, digging for dirt, creating an"us against them"
atmosphere all reason is left behind.
The biggest problem I see at Torrey is not enough HG pilots fly here anymore. I am working on a plan to make more pilots qualified to fly.
I think more HG'ers would be benificial for all. I spoke with David Jebb about this and he agrees. There were 7 Hg'ers out today. The flying was so-so.
Nothing bad happened once again. When the spring season starts expect to see more HG'ers. If there is something specific you would like me to help with,
just ask. I will be happy to do what I can.
Brad Hall
brad.reg3@gmail.com

[designbydave]

[gtpowell]

Brad,

I have no relationship and/or affiliation with Bob Kazinski. If this is the gentleman who is behind the Torrey Hawks, I did meet him at the AJ Fly-in last weekend. We traveled up the hill together in the McBuss. This gentleman did propose to me to join the Torrey Hawks, although not knowing much of his past and/or ambitions, I chose not to become a member. I cited, since not having an H4 prevents me from having an opportunity to vote, I would not allow another person to use my name and/or membership for his own objectives, objectives I may or may not agree with.

I am as I previously mentioned, simply a So-Cal HG pilot that has been around since 1980. I am currently rated as an H-3 pilot. I was out of flying for several years and have only recently returned. Flying Torrey Pines has always been an objective of mine and after recent investigations into flying there I have discovered how discouraging the current political environment is surrounding flying at Torrey Pines.

Regarding my objectives, my objectives are to be able to fly without discrimination. Torrey Pines does not warrant an HG advanced rating (H4) to fly, evident by the fact that intermediate PG pilots (P3) are allowed to fly. It is my opinion the only significant reason for the rating discrimination is to limit the number of HG pilots in the air. I am suspicious this discrimination may very well be driven by the positive affects fewer HG pilots has to Air California's bottom line.

Since Torrey Pines is public property, paid for by all tax payers, not just the PG tax payers, I feel it should be made available to all in a fair and un-biased manner. I'm not saying H1 and P1 should be allowed to fly, I’m saying that if it is deemed safe for P3 to fly, then it is also safe for H3's to fly.

Through my investigations into the history of Torrey Pines and the current leasee, I came across the documentation I posted in this forum. With the current lease expiring in 1-year and with the city in the initial stages of developing this property, if changes are to be made to eliminate the discrimination now is the time to take action. If this means promoting another leasee that is capable of successfully operating this facility, and operating in a nonbiased manner then I am all for it. If the city has plans to develop this property and continue the right to fly, then I want to be sure the city is fully aware of the documented safety records of PG vs. HG. Sitting back and allowing the continuation of discrimination for another ten-years is irresponsible. All HG pilots should be concerned over this issue.

[sg]

[knumbknuts]

The H4 requirement to fly Torrey is all the bad vibe I need.

I also, by the way, inquired there about hang gliding lessons last year and was told by the person behind the counter that they don't really fly hang gliders there anymore.

Technically accurate, functionally, not cool.

I don't know any other facts, but I know those two above, and they're enough for me to be member 8 of Torrey Hawks. How could it get worse? The outright banning of hang gliding from Torrey Pines. That would have zero effect on my flight time for the next two years, since I am 130 flights away from enough flights to qualify for H4. Ironically, Torrey would be the perfect place for me to get a lot of individual flights in, in one day. Instead, I have to hump it up to Funston.

Not only am I #8, but I'm donating webspace to Bob, will help him with web programming, would like to attend any open, public meetings on the subject, and would gladly donate some bucks to the cause.

Personally, I think the Hang 4s should have a monthly hang glider a palooza to make their presence known.

Again, how could "tensions" between HGs and PGs make it worse for HGs? Of course, PGs don't feel the tension, they've got every hang glider pilot with 249 flights or less tacked to the grass by the balls.

[sg]

The other thing I really dont like about this situation is this underlying message that we (HG pilots) shouldnt rock the boat because it will somehow jeopardise the site. How perfect for the current holder huh? I think we deserve better.

Fair access to Torrey for HG pilots would probably have the single biggest impact on HG in the san diego area. Opening it up to HG instruction, would be even bigger.

They like to portray the image that they offer HG lessons at Torrey, only to bait and switch you to PG lessons the moment you ask. If you check their website, they dont offer any beginner instruction only "advanced instruction" What does that mean??? How many H4 pilots go to an easy ridge site like Torrey for instruction?? Come on. This is just political nonsense so they can "technically" claim they offer HG instruction. *sigh*

[CHassan]

[brad]

I will try to hit on some of the topics. I do not think that fewer HG'ers
would have a positive effect at Torrey. Just tho opposite. Lets face
one fact, the buisness has to make money to justify being there.
HG pilots pay the same fee as PG pilots. Why would the TFP push
out a paying customer? To make it a PG only site? I see no evidence
of this. There are quite a few HG pilots that now also fly PG'ers. Pushing
one would push both. I hope I did not imply there is "perfect harmony"
at Torrey. My comments were a snapshot of the last 2 days. I have had
many conflicts with PG'ers over the past few years. I have landed pissed
off and done my share of confronting instructors. Some times it actually
did some good. There is room for improvement. Do I see different
standards applied? Often times I would say yes. I think all this can and
will be addressed. I am doing that now.
You ask "how could it get worse?" Let me remind you of the Bill
Bennett days. He tried to run all HG'ers out. He personally took a knife
to all the tie down ropes. He put a flexable aluminum exhaust pipe into
the HG set up area and ran the generators at full speed to choke out
anyone there. He opened the doors on the generators so you could not
even carry on a conversation in the roar. He placed metal fence posts
all around the set up area, close enough togother that you could not get
a HG'er in & out without help. He would scream in a drunken rage at
any HG pilot he perceived as not on "his Team". He threatened to fire
any employee that was seen speaking to me. He told many pilots
that if they were my friend they were not going to fly at Torrey. I have
seen how bad it can get and never want to see it again.
The " don't rock the boat " mentality is somewhat justified. I have been
told in the past that if we could not solve our own disputes, then the City
would do it for us. One option was to just close the site to flying. I have
attended city council meetings, met with the Mayor, the City Atty., Parks &
Rec. and many others. The overwhelming feeling I came away with was
take care of it ourselves or risk it all. Sure, many were sympatehtic. But
when it came to helping us out, the were only pathetic.
Instruction at Torrey. To my knowledge there are only 2 HG instructors
in SD. Neither work at Torrey. Steve Stackable is an examiner and does
help H-3 pilots move up to H-4. Torrey is certainly not a site for beginners
or H-2's. Like I stated earlier, I am working on getting advanced H-3's
the chance to build some hours at Torrey. Give me a little time to see
what can be worked out.
SG, if you would like to get togother, along with any other pilots that
have a conflict with TFP, I would be happy to meet with you all at your
convinence. I will do whatever I can to resolve the issues. Let me know
when and where.

Brad Hall
brad.reg3@gmail.com

[gtpowell]

From FlyTorrey.com/Company Values (FlyTorrey.com, AKA: Air California Adventures)

Quote:

Torrey Pines Gliderport seeks to promote the hang gliding and paragliding in a safe and exciting way, by combining intensive training, with comprehensive curriculum, and a knowledgeable instructor staff. We hope to become the total solution to the flight enthusiast in Southern California and the United States.

KK wrote;

Quote:

I also, by the way, inquired there about hang gliding lessons last year and was told by the person behind the counter that they don't really fly hang gliders there anymore.

When you read the company values page, Air California Adventures sounds as if they have both HG and PG best interest in mind. Although, I witness reports appear to represent otherwise. This may have been ACA’s initial intent when opening for business 10-years ago, although to me, current schooling practices and right-to-fly practices depict some other mission. For ethical reasons, maybe it is time to update the website.

What’s interesting about this entire situation is that ACA may actually be missing out on a tremendous opportunity to significantly increase profits. Let’s use car dealership owners as an example. You will not find one single successful car dealership owner that sells only one type of automobile. Neither will you find an automobile manufacture that manufactures only one type of automobile. It’s all about marketing to the masses to achieve greater market share. Manufactures produce small, medium and large automobiles, economy and full luxury, SUV’s and trucks. These owners and manufactures sell several brands to insure they can meet the needs/desires of every person that walks in the door.

Now in the case of ACA, I would think it would be wise to follow these successful business tactics and market to any and all that walk through their door. There remains a tremendous interest among the general population in Hang-Gliding and by discriminating against Hang-Gliding, ACA has lost significant market share and profit. Why not sell both types of wings, provide lessons for both, and allow pilots of equal rating to use Torrey therefore attracting the attention for both markets, followed by sales to both markets? HG instructing does not even have to take place at Torrey Pines. But simply turning away an entire market share seems like strange business to me.

[sg]

Thanks for all the great info Brad. You seem like a reasonable and level headed guy. Exactly what we need when their is conflict.
I think its important to educate people like us on the "facts". There are so many misconceptions out there that breed a lot of negativity.

Anyway, I guess it still bothers me that the city has this attitude that if they are bothered too much, they will just wash their hands clean of the site and shut it down. Coupled with the fact that this attitude exists while a PG school is in control, it basically gives them a monopoly on the site forever because everyone is too scared to complain about unfair treatment to the city.

After 10 years of PG control, it sure would be nice to see a 10 year rotation into HG control, or at the very least, true fair access to both groups.

I also disagree that Torrey is not a site for H2's. What do you base this on?
If P1's can learn there on radio's, why couldnt an H2 fly there on a radio? Putting a falcon down at torrey with a head wind is a no brainer with a little bit of training. Sorta like Crestline/Marshall. H2 with sign off. I simply cannot think of a better site in san diego, in the right conditions, to teach an H2 to fly. I cant think of a safer site for H2's either. Without Torrey access, our H2's are forced to go to more dangerous mountain sites like Horse. Id like to see the H3 happen first though.

Also, Ive had way too many clueless P1's cause issues on the ridge, yet they are allowed to fly there. In fact, I have caught static from Dave simply because I flew around P1's and made them nervous. Even at mink sink, I blow by them fast and make them nervous and when its light and scratchy you obviously get a lot closer to people which makes them nervous as well due to inexperience. A P1 thinks 30 feet is waaaay close

I just dont see how this double standard can exist. In the spring, on a straight in 12mph day, an H2 on a radio would be cake. The H3, to me, is a no brainer. Just look at the LZ graphics I posted. There is tons of LZ at torrey. People trick themselves because they think of the little area on top of the hill as the LZ heh heh.... there is much more room than that. Its very comparable to other sites like Funston (H3) but without all the junky air in the LZ.

Lets take this one thing at a time, and shoot for the H3.


One more question.... so this other guy that is interested in getting the lease. You called out that he had a vested interest, a conflict of interest, whatever, so you sorta disregard his position. Im not sure I understand this. Doesnt Dave also have a vested interest? Why is it automatically a bad thing that someone else would like to bid for the site? Doesnt Dave have also have a clear conflict of interest too when it comes to any site decisions? Im not sure we should be poisoning the well just because someone else has interest in running the site. It could potentially improve things, or make them worse, thats something that needs to be researched, but I disagree with any kind of automatic rejection. I dont know enough to decide right now, one way or the other.

[sg]

[brad]

This all sounds well and good. In order for TFP tp offer HG lessons they would need 1. HG instructors. 2. A place to instruct. As far as I know the only training hill around is Little Black. Also a city owned property. 3. Insurance
for the site and the instructor. 4. A customer base to justify all this.
5. Students that would stay around long enough to actually learn how
to fly. A big problem even with schools like Lookout Mtn.
In the end, it is the buisness that has to make the decision on what
will work for them. I would love to see a Wills Wing dealership at Torrey.
Just how profitable this would be is a question only TFP can determine.
At this point in time pg'ing is almost at parody with hg'ing as far as
numbers go. I hope at some point there is a resurgence in interest
in hg'ing. Look around, most of us are getting pretty long in the tooth.
Most of the pg'ers are much younger. The commitment to learn to hg
is huge compared to learning to pg. It is a national trend with no easy
answers.
Brad

[sg]

In San Diego yes.
At a flight park in Florida, No.
It all depends on the available training methods.

HG simply cannot compete when there is a local PG school that can throw a brand new student off of Torrey on a radio in a couple of days. Instant gratification.

However, if local instructors could do a couple of days of HG hill training, and then take their students to Torrey with a radio, that changes a LOT. Suddenly, the entry barriers got a lot smaller for HG and are more comparable to PG.


Ive had PG pilots ask me about hang gliding. They see me zooming around having fun, instead of boating in slow motion, and they think its awesome. When I tell them what their learning options are.... HA... they go back to their PG's and forget about it. Its just too hard to learn HG in san diego. Not because its HG, but because of the lack of training sites and methods that make HG easy.

[tizeagle]

I do look forward to the day I can take a spin at Torey, it is where I saw HGing in person for the first time. I can understand how a conflict occurs when you have to groups fighting for limited space just like race and religion. I will be learning to fly a PG do to choice and out here in the flat lands there is a thermal for everyone. I can count the increase of PG by the magazine recording of the issuance of licenses but having a true conflict with another pilot I can't understand. Even in our limited mountains to the North in OK and AK were still a really good family HG and PG. It is a shame that this mind set has come to Torrey and hopefully the work and dialog I see between y'all will help increase the HGing base in San Diego and relax some of the tension between the two groups. It is hard to play Mr nice guy especially when the PG's are being trained to dislike HG's by their own mentors.

Why don't y'all get Lobido involved in looking over some of those contracts and lease's. (Sorry to volunteer you Lobido) It doesn't take long to get racism of any type established but it takes along time to get it reversed.

[spekkinout]

I can back up Brad's comments regarding Bennett in the old days. The guy was an ass, many SD HG'ers hated him. I wasn't even a real HG pilot back then, having just done a couple days on the training hill, not flying Torrey but there spectating, and I found him to be a jerk. Bennett did a lot of harm to the SD HGing scene, and he definitely contributed to the decline of HG pilots in the SD area. This David Jebb is likely a saint in comparison, even with the PG centric bias he holds, but it sounds like he's nothing more than the lesser of two evils.

As far as HG instruction goes, Brad stated the only training hill in SD is Little Black, which makes it sound like it sucks for training or something. If that hill is still available, I have to say it is a fine training hill, it certainly was when I trained there. Maybe there are more obstructions there now, I don't know? I did 3 days training there, not sure how many flights (30-40ish or so? sounds about right), and was deemed ready for a solo high flight with instructor on radio, which due to travelling circumstances I ended up doing at Cayucus (sp?) up by Morrow Bay. IIRC, it's something like 800', with a beach LZ. With only my 3 days training at Little Black, I had no problems with my first high flight, and after that flight I'm certain I could have safely flown Torrey with instructor on radio (but there were no slow pylons to dodge back then).

[gbx5150]

How about this for the new Torry Pines Gliderport poster??

[brad]

SG,
I don't like the attitude I have seen in City Government either.
The old Torrey Pines HG Assn. did a lot of work with petitions
and doccoumentation, at the request of the City, only to have
over a years work hit the round file. The CYA mentality permeates
city government. We are small fish in the scheme of things and
no City employee is going to bet his pension on our conflict. There
are so many departments that it is easy to pass the buck and turn
a blind eye to us. If the Mayor was a HG pilot, then maybe........

I have to dissagree with you about Torrey being a H-2 site. Your
graphics of the LZ are great, but don't tell the whole story. As you know,
Torrey can be very changable. When it goes north, the LZ becomes far
less forgiving. A low, fast approach over the palm trees and set up area
to a landing short of the crest takes skill and finess. Weaving in and out of slower moving PG'ers without causing a conflict will keep you on your toes.
(yeah, I know, too many student pg'ers). I have seen MANY h-4 pilots, new
to Torrey, blow their approaches and landings. This is after a walk through
with them explaining all the criteria for a successful approach & landing.
The last H-3 I vouched for, because I had flown in the mountains several
times with the pilot, flew straight downwind and plowed in. There is
something about Torrey that seems to confuse new pilots. Maybe its
the new visuals or the seemingly no-brainer that a coastal ridge presents.
I don't know how to explain it, but it is there.
GBX510- I do enjoy the photo of the HG zooming past the PG. I think most
PG'ers have no idea what their vortex does because it affects them so little.
I have been waked big time by PG'ers, especially tandems ,doing wangs
below and in front of me. I have also seen HG'ers retalitate against PG'ers
by zooming by them as close as they can. All it will take is one serious
accident to open everyones eyes to how foolish this is. We need to educate each other better.
Spekkinout- The LZ area around Little Black has been developed quite
a bit since you flew there. I haven't been out there for years, but hear it is
no longer a great place to train. Glad you got to fly Cayocous. I love that place.
SG- I really do not want to become the spokesman for the lease wars.
Like I said earlier, Bob K. can do and say what he wants. I don't trust his
methods or motives, but that is my opinion. All I asked for was informed
decisions. This may be hard to figure out. It is worth the effort if you want
YOUR voice to be heard.
As for the Torrey web site, I have nothing to do with their buisness.
I would think the best place to voice a complait about it would be the
address listed on their web site.
And finally, I went to the Red Bull air races today. Simply amazing! If you
get the chance to go to the finals tomorrow, do it.

Brad Hall
brad.reg3@gmail.com