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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
 #281 |
Now this is getting really interesting.
Who exactly determines what "safe" means at the site according to the lease? It doesnt seem reasonable that Jebb can simply wave his hand and label anything unsafe. He couldnt get away with saying something like "hang gliding is not safe" and thus ban hang gliding.
So now the question is, can he say "H3's are not safe" and reasonably get away with it while at the same time having P0's with radio's flying there?
I somehow doubt he would want to argue that case in front of any san diego city authority only to have the P0 thing brought up front and center. No way you could argue a student with no experience is more safe than an intermediate rated pilot with over 10 hours of air time. Thats a non-starter.
My next question would be, what would you need in writing to show a cop that proves the concessionaire doesnt have the authority to remove you??? If I had all the docs necessary to show I have a right to fly there without any input from the concessionaire, but he calls the cops anyway, I need something to show the cop, which IF IGNORED, I could bring up in court against the cop.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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mgforbes
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
#282 |
The policy is on the website, Members Only/Insurance. The certificate of
insurance is held by the San Diego HG/PG club, and you can check with
them for the paperwork. The city has been named as additionally insured
for some years.
MGF
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gtpowell
2 thumbs up
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 339
Location: High Above So. California
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
#283 |
Thanks MGF,
Man, do you ever sleep.....???
_________________
Gary
Rating, - H3
WW Sport2-175
USHGA Since 1981 |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
#284 |
Brad, you started out implying that I was "Glide Junkie":
| Brad (Fri May 30, 2008 6:38 pm) wrote: |
| I will be very supprised if "glidejunkie" is not Bob K. himself, or he is posting word for word what Bob is telling him. |
It turns out that you were wrong. You essentially accused me of creating a ficticious second identity on this site, which I did not do. You were flat out wrong. Glide Junkie was not posting "word for word what Bob is telling him", you were wrong again. Glide Junkie's statements were made by an independent observer of your own conduct in a public meeting. Glide Junkie was brave enough to share them with the community, and your first response (rather than stand up and admit what you said) was to accuse me of having made it up. Shame on you Brad.
You went on to say:
| Brad (Fri May 30, 2008 6:38 pm) wrote: |
| I have seen way too much of his writing not to recognize it. |
Brad, you were wrong again. That was not my writing. But you were so sure of yourself while being dead wrong. What does that tell you about your own clouded judgement on this topic? You will believe whatever you want to believe.
Now you deny what Glide Junkie has said:
| Brad (Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:48 pm) wrote: |
| I will start with glidejunkie. Yes, I do deny that I said what you posted. |
I haven't know Glide Junkie that long, but I have a sense that she's an honest person, and I would certainly believe her word over yours any day of the week. She has been both brave and honest in her statements, and I am proud to have her as a member of the Hawks. I will add that it's a shame that Glide Junkie wasn't recording this public meeting (at least I don't think she was) or she would be able to demonstrate for everyone that your denial has no basis in fact. Come to think of it, there were a lot of people there with cameras and other recording equipment. Maybe I'll ask around to see if any of them may have picked up exactly what was said. Do you care to rephrase your denial? It will look really bad if someone with a parabolic microphone happened to catch your conversation. You'd be better off to admit what you said up front sooner rather than later.
Brad, when I started looking into the problems at the Gliderport (well over a year ago), I heard your name mentioned as someone who would fight for fairness. I had heard that you led the charge for fairness in the past. I remember being so glad to finally get your phone number and to call you.
Brad, I am sorry to say, that you've been a disappointment ever since.
You know that you allowed David Jebb to pick Doug Poirier (a PG pilot) for you to rubber stamp on the Soaring Council. When I called you almost a year ago to ask why you had chosen this guy, you replied that you had never heard of him, and that you would look into it. I was certain from your indignation that you would fix that problem. But instead, you came back and essentially said that Doug Poirier was your best choice of all the people you could have chosen - and yet you didn't even know him when he said you had picked him. How did that happen? How did you pick someone who you claimed you'd never heard of to represent all of USHPA on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council?
Come on Brad, we can all see that David Jebb told you to pick him and you just rubber stamped it for him. What has happened to you? Look at how you've allowed yourself to be twisted by David Jebb into supporting whatever he wants. What is going on here? What power does he hold over you to make you into his own little puppet?
And to add insult to injury, you sit on the Soaring Council and refuse to add what is probably the biggest hang gliding (or paragliding) club in San Diego to that council. That Council currently has 3 RC clubs, 2 sailplane clubs, and only 2 clubs to represent the combined sports of hang gliding and paragliding. It should be a no-brainer for you to add the Hawks as either yourself or as a representative of USHPA. You don't have to agree with us to give our 113+ members a voice. But month after month you approve the rejection (or ignoring or whatever you want to call it) of our application. How can you justify that?
Brad, when are you going to wake up and recognize that this is not just Bob Kuczewski and Dave Beardslee, two disgruntled pilots? We're just the visible tip of the iceberg. There are lots of people who've been watching what's been happening at the Gliderport and want to see some changes. And they're all watching you. They're seeing how you've conducted yourself. You're spending a lifetime of goodwill for what? Are you supporting David Jebb's right to kick people out without any written reason? Is that what you stand for? Are you supporting David Jebb calling our members and telling them things that didn't happen? Are you supporting David Jebb pulling out Ken's favorite tie-downs just to spite him for being a member of the Hawks? Again I have to ask what has happened to you?
But let me come back to where I started. You have denied Glide Junkie's quotes, and that is logically equivalent to calling her a liar. I believe her, and I think your own track record supports her story far more than your denial. I am calling for you to admit what you said and to apologize to Glide Junkie for that false accusation.
Bob Kuczewski
Last edited by bobk on Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:50 am; edited 14 times in total |
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SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Torrey Hawks |
#285 |
Is the length of this subject (and the number of posts) any indication of the value that Torrey Pines has as a hang glider site?
The Jebbs must be making way more money than I figured, just to put up with this kind of frontal assault.
Must be worth it for some reason.
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Astroboy2001
3 thumbs up
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 256
Location: Approx. 40km NNE of Stanwell Park (Sydney)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: |
#286 |
This has certainly been fascinating thread to read. Being a long long way from all this and not even a real pilot yet I can't comment too much on this, but hearing the name "Torrey Pines" on the radio this morning alerted me to the fact there's a bit of a golf tournament going on there.
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23857016-5001023,00.html
Not sure where that ball is going, but looks from that angle like a nice place to launch 
Hope that site is HG friendly in years to come.
Edit: Added the photo in case it gets lost later.
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Batman
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
#287 |
Sad thing, I was watching the US Open at TP yesterday afternoon and the commentator said it was sad they hadn't seen any hang gliders this year as has been so common over the years. Hang gliding has been so much a part of the Torrey Pines scenery and it just kills me that one person's agenda has killed it for us flex wing pilots. I don't have any problem with PG pilots, but HG needs equal representation at one of our nations most visible flying sites.
Chris
_________________
Since 2001. H3 AT FL AWCL CL FSL RLF
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
#288 |
| Actually, flying is prohibited during the US Open.
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Jason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7533
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
#289 |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| Actually, flying is prohibited during the US Open. |
thats a new development.....I used to fly along there buzzing the camaras
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TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil! |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
#290 |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
| Actually, flying is prohibited during the US Open. |
This new rule SUUUUCKS!!!! FAA did it? I think?
I have a pic of my flying behind Tiger Woods at Torrey Pines somewhere
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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knumbknuts
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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Rob McKenzie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 414
Location: San Bernardino, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
#292 |
If the FAA has put a restriction on flying in the vicinity of the "open" at Torrey, wouldn't they list it as a TFR? I didn't see it using
http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html
Then again, I didn't call 1-800-WX-Brief to verify, which is really the best way to determine what TFR's actually do exist. If it were my home site I would probably give the briefer a call.
And even if the FAA hasn't placed a TFR doesn't mean that management at a flight park can't create their own closure for PR reasons. For example, here at Marshall, if we have a fire break out in the mountains near the air park, we ask that HG and PG operations cease immediately, even if there is no TFR yet.
Ever wondered why it often takes 24 hours or more to create a TFR for firefighting, and the fire is often already extinguished by the time the TFR comes into effect. And then it takes sometimes a week or more to remove the TFR. Often most of this time the fire has been out and there are no firefighting operations happening. One would think that the system would be much more streamlined and reflective of what is actually happening. They are probably using the pony express to communicate with firefighting operations. (please excuse this rant, it's probably my single biggest pet peeve)
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Rob McKenzie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 414
Location: San Bernardino, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
#293 |
I thought maybe I could add a tidbit of our current system in working with local firefighting operations. Sorry it's not Torrey related so skip to next post if that's what you are interested in.
If a fire breaks out near the Andy Jackson Airpark, pilots are asked to recognize this as meaning they need to land. As a backup we have a 50' X we place in the field to help get pilots out of the air.
http://www.flytandem.com/land_now.htm
I have an aviation handheld radio set up to scan the local frequencies often used by the spotter planes and the tankers that are fighting fires. Once I find the frequency they are using, I monitor and wait for a good opportunity to contact the spotter organizing the tankers and helicopters. Once contact is made I let them know of our progress in clearing the air (remaining gliders and their location if there are any). They are usually surprised and appreciative of our efforts both in clearing the air and in communicating with them. And they often are, in return, very accommodating in giving us permission to resume flight operations as soon as possible. This method of pilot to pilot communication is very effective and bypasses the bureaucrats. The bureaucrats would just screw things up. And all this happens long before any TFR has come into effect.
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saltoricco
3 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 984
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
#294 |
| Rob McKenzie wrote: |
| As a backup we have a 50' X we place in the field to help get pilots out of the air. |
Excellent proactive handling on your side! I had to smile though when I saw the big X and how you reversed it's general meaning in aviation.
I really look forward to come on down some time and fly at Jackson. Hopefully no X's then.
Holger
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Rob McKenzie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 414
Location: San Bernardino, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
#295 |
| saltoricco wrote: |
| Rob McKenzie wrote: |
| As a backup we have a 50' X we place in the field to help get pilots out of the air. |
Excellent proactive handling on your side! I had to smile though when I saw the big X and how you reversed it's general meaning in aviation.
I really look forward to come on down some time and fly at Jackson. Hopefully no X's then.
Holger |
Yes, it's a reversal of the usual x on the runway, which usually means "don't land HERE", or "runway closed" . We discussed the best way to clear the air and since radios would be far less effective, we needed something on the LZ easily seen. Large flag? Maybe, but unless it were HUGE it would be ineffective. Smoke cannisters? Bad idea. Noise maker, like siren? Minimal effect and really obnoxious to those at the LZ. Some type of marking on the LZ? OK good idea but what? A large "L" for land or "C" for closed to flying, or "T" for our own TFR, or ... we just went with the X for now. So far it seems to work, haven't had anyone intentionally stay in the air thinking it meant stay up until the LZ is open again for landings. But we're flexible. The current system can be modified at any time and it's just a matter of communicating to pilots what system is in effect.
The only confusion or issue with the X and this system of a large vinyl letter would be the case when we offer the LZ as a bucket staging area for the helicopters. This has been done in the past, before we had the "clear the air" signal system. In this case the arriving helicopters would potentially blow the letters away and if we pull the X off the field perhaps someone at launch might think we are open again for HG and PG. Maybe just placing some harnesses on the X to help weight it down, and slide it over closer to the shade structure and have the helicopters land at least 200' away on the opposite side of the LZ to reduce the chances of the X being blown away.
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mgforbes
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 458
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
#296 |
Flying my PG over Valle de Bravo last December, I was enjoying the view and
noticed all the firecrackers going off in town. Those folks really love their
explosives! So I'm soaring along in the glass-off enjoying the smooth air and
peaceful serenity of flight when I see a smoke trail coming up from the surface
and an explosion a few hundred feet below me!
A Mexican bottle rocket seems to be about the size of a stick of dynamite and
about the same blast effect. Sure got MY attention! Maybe an alternative way to
convey that "land now" message?
"Land, or be shot down!"
MGF
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designbydave
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 2429
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
#297 |
| mgforbes wrote: |
Flying my PG over Valle de Bravo last December, I was enjoying the view and
noticed all the firecrackers going off in town. Those folks really love their
explosives! So I'm soaring along in the glass-off enjoying the smooth air and
peaceful serenity of flight when I see a smoke trail coming up from the surface
and an explosion a few hundred feet below me!
A Mexican bottle rocket seems to be about the size of a stick of dynamite and
about the same blast effect. Sure got MY attention! Maybe an alternative way to
convey that "land now" message?
"Land, or be shot down!"
MGF |
fireworks are bad in SoCal...
_________________
-Dave
http://www.designbydave.net/ |
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brad
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Carlsbad Ca.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: torrey |
#298 |
The City of San Diego mandated that the gliderport be closed for the US open.
You can't even get a car anywhere near the site. Of course this is a loss of
revenue for the site in more ways than one. I don't think there is a TFR
issued. Amazing the millions(?) spent to prepare the golf course for this
event. The City must be getting a lot in return.
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
#299 |
So, everyone is a Hang 3 for a couple of weeks.
/sorry
//had to
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
#300 |
| KK wrote: |
| So, everyone is a Hang 3 for a couple of weeks. |
Or everyone is President and VIce-President of the Torrey Hawks for a couple of weeks. : (
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