[knumbknuts]

Bob Kuczewski, a San Diego HG pilot, is trying to get hang gliding represented better at Torrey Pines. We all know from SG how hang gliding is the prison b**** of Paragliding there (my interpretation).

Bob has started the "Torrey Hawks" to be advocates for the interests of Hang Gliding at this site. http://www.torreyhawks.org is the site and bobk ~@~~ bluebottle . com (take out spaces and tildes) is his email address. Membership is free.

Here is the text of his first newsletter:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fellow Hawks (and potential friends of the Hawks),

Thanks very much for your membership. The Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club (USHPA Chapter #270) now includes 31 members and continues to grow. Thanks to each of you for supporting hang gliding at Torrey Pines with your membership.

Our mission statement (available at http://torreyhawks.org) states:

The Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club is dedicated
to promoting and protecting the sport of Hang Gliding
at the Torrey Pines Gliderport.

I welcome suggestions from all members regarding how you think we might best carry out that mission statement. My own current goal is to seek a position for the Torrey Hawks on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council which acts as an advisory board for making rules at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. The Soaring Council currently consists of 7 member clubs (3 RC clubs, 2 sailplane clubs, and 2 HG/PG clubs). As far as I know, not one of those 7 member clubs has chosen a hang glider pilot as its representative. I am trying to correct that situation, and at the last Soaring Council meeting (on September 12th) I formally requested that the Torrey Hawks club be added to the list of member clubs. This will require a 2/3 vote of the current Soaring Council members, and I don't know if we can win that vote. Two of the voting members are paraglider pilots from our own national and local organizations who are likely to oppose adding the Hawks.
Their names and email addresses are:

USHPA (national) - Doug Poirier douglaspoirier1 ~ @ ~ yahoo.com
SDHGPA (local) - Scott Kemp scottkemp ~ @ ~ san.rr.com

It might be helpful for our members to contact these organizations (USHPA and SDHGPA) directly and request that their representatives (Doug and Scott) support the addition of the Torrey Hawks to the Soaring Council. Then we could at least get one hang glider pilot on that 7 (or 8 ) member organization. The vote will take place at the next Soaring Council meeting in early October, so we have some time to contact anyone we might know at USHPA or SDHGPA to see if we can get them to support the Hawks. Please let me know if you'd like more information on this project.

Finally, I want to thank you again for your membership, and to let you know that you can call me (858 204~7499) at literally any time for any reason related to the Hawks mission. I am looking for any and all ideas to make this club helpful for each of its members ... that's you!

Thanks again,
Bob Kuczewski
President, Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club

[boarini2003]

Good news for the great sport of HG. Torrey Pines accepts P3, but not H3, demanding instead an H4. What is the reasoning behind this? Seems that would reduce the incentive to go hang gliding there.

[sg]

Torrey also allows a P1 on a radio, but not an H2 on a radio and certainly not an H1 on a radio.

IM IN.

I just hope the orgs goals include getting equal access to the site, including access to HG instructors if Torrey refuses to provide HG lessons themselves (and I dont mean just on paper, but actually giving instruction)

[gtpowell]

SG,

So what’s the real deal at Torrey Pines?

This past weekend at the Andy Jackson Fly-in, I heard nothing but bad things about the over-controlling power at Torrey Pines and how they wish to have Hang Pilots out and/or severely limit their use.

Is the PG Pilot power at Torrey actually trying to push out Hang Pilots?

What’s the deal with P1's and P2's flying and H3 can't?

Are HG pilots in jeopardy of loosing equal rights to fly at Torrey?

I was tempted to join the Torrey Hawks, but wished to farther investigation into the matter prior to adding to the political atmosphere.

Thanks in advance for your response.

[xerxes]

[CHassan]

That is pretty much it I think!

Good to see someone fighting for Torrey!

[sg]

[boarini2003]

Those are all good questions SG. How can there be one set of standards for HG and one for PG? Their insurance argument does not make sense. Since it is (as I understand) city property, can some sort of complaint be made? It is unfair to give out arbitrary privileges to one group over another. They should either open it up to H3's or demand a corresponding P4 rating to the bags.

[designbydave]

well I signed up with the Hawks. If anything I just want my name on a list of Hang Glider pilots that support the growth and expansion of flying Hang Gliders, not the retraction of it, which seems to be the case at Torrey.

The Marshall/Crestline area seems to support both forms of flying well, with little bickering between the two disciplines. I'm sure part of that is due to the abundance of experienced pilots that fly both and an instructor that teaches both. Just yesterday I was sinking out when a PG much lower than showed me a beauty of a thermal that we both rode together for a 2000'+ gain.

Hang Gliding and Paragliding are compatible activities. It just takes pilots with an understanding of right-of-way rules to keep the flying fun and safe.

[gtpowell]

SG,

Who currently controls the Torrey Pines site?

Obviously, the property is owned by the city and some club/organization leases the property.

Is this club/organization the one that establishes the right to fly rules, or are they established in the lease agreement with the city?

If the city establishes the right to fly rules, and the city was presented with factual USHPA statistics on injuries and fatalities of PG vs. HG, do you feel this could open up the site to H3’s? As you said, somebody has convinced the city that P3’s and P2’s are safe.

Who is making the profit from the PG school? Is it the club/org that leases the property or is it a private company and/or individual? And. is the city receiving additional income outside of regular taxes paid by the operators?

Is the lease agreement primary focus to provide a recreational facility for all pilots who qualify based on the P3/H4 regulation, or does the operation of the school take precedence over recreational flying?

If the city was to recognize the school as operating outside of the agreement by allowing unqualified pilots to fly and/or understand that operators at the school are harassing recreational HG pilots to increase their profits, do you think the city take interest?

Is the city interested in discrimination of pilots, or do they just wish to not deal with any of these issues and let whoever is in charge, do as they wish?

I realize you won’t have all the answers, but it would be nice to hear what you do know.

[sg]

[brad]

This seems to be the season to open all the worm cans. So be it. Torrey Pines is a very complicated land use issue. It is an "unimproved City Park", which means the City of San Diego does not want to spend any money to "improve" it.
This would be along the lines of getting electricity and sewer lines, bathrooms,
paved parking, ect. Even in the best of times they have shown no interest in any of this. The city is broke now and far into the future. UCSD ownes the sailplane runway. They are about to build on the east and and forever remove any west approaches for sailplanes. They are a powerful force that answer to very few and have their own set of laws, far different than what the public must follow. There is an effort to try to stop the building, which the soaring council is involved in, but it is a long shot. The State owns the north portion of the ridge.
They make the law. Private property owners along the cliff have some say that can and does restrict flight paths. (don't fly directly over homes) There are multi- millionaires that we do not need or want a dispute with.
The concessionaire, Torrey Flight Park, is there mainly because they are willing to assume all liability for flight opps. Without a concession, the site would close down in a heart beat. I well remember a time when Hang gliding
Prohibited signs peppered the lz. (made it hard to land) In order for a buisness to survive and continue flight opps, the buisness has to make money. This is just a fact of life. TFP is a paragliding buisness, and they focus on that. They are the ones that decide what ratings are needed. The H4 for HGers is partially a left over from the earlier days when the first use permits were issued. It was a City mandate at that time to limit possible liability. Should it be a H3 site? Maybe. There are certainly many H3 pilots with the right skills to safely fly Torrey. Yeah, I know it is "just a ridge site", how hard can it be? The answer is the flying is easy. The launch and landing require excellent skills, as do the traffic problems associated with a limited lift band, different wings,
and students. Over the past few years we have had several accidents involving advanced hg pilots. All were at launch. I see new pg pilots screw up all the time. It is frequently a Zoo out there. This is where some of the anamosity lies. It used to be, pre-pg'ers, you could scratch around on a marginal day and still top land. This is no longer the case. Marginal conditions for us (hg'ers) are optimal conditions for some pg'ers. It just gets too crowded to have fun or be safe. On the other hand, when it's "ON", most pg'ers can't fly and we have a great time. I miss the scratchin' days, but that is how it is now. I may not agree with all that the TFP does, or the way they do it, but I am grateful that SOMEONE
keeps the site open. We have had good and bad concessionaires over the years. There have always been disputes. Bottom line is; Support the buisness or loose the site. Simple as that. We may not always like everything about how things are done, but we must protect the site with open eyes and informed actions or we could all be wishing for the day when all you had to do was pony up a few bucks, obey a few simple rules, and enjoy the flying.
Brad Hall
Region 3 Director
brad.reg3@gmail.com

[gtpowell]

Thanks SG....!!!!

I would think the lease agreement must be on public file somewhere within the city document department in addition to a fictitious business name filing for the school.

I'll see what I can find on the net.

[knumbknuts]

I think our best shot at fairness would be with the USHPA.

I doubt the private owners could carry private insurance and I can't imagine the USHPA would want to subsidize unnecessary suppression of hang gliding by providing affordable site insurance to them, only to have hang 3s locked out.

That having been said, I'm sure the USHPA's higher ups are aware of this situation and it appears they've not been bothered by it.

[brad]

The fact is, private owners, aka Torrey Flight Park, does carry its' own insurance. USHPA insurance does not cover commercial operations. There is also the usual "trip & fall" insurance and probably more. The USHPA does not get involved in the day to day workings of different sites. This is what local clubs and chapters are for. I can't imagine a staff of mostly volunteers being in charge of any site. The locals decide on rules. USHPA is a service org.
It is always easy to bash the natl.org for doing or not doing something.
The membership IS the org. Want to change something or make a difference?
Get involved and do it. Need help? Contact your Regional Director. Thats what we are here for.

Brad Hall
brad.reg3@gmail.com

[knumbknuts]

Well,

Then I guess we have to be really nice to the operators and show them business reasons to loosen up on Hangs.

Or, lease the site oof.

[sg]

I bid $2 for next year

[gtpowell]

OK Brad,

Thanks for offering up your assistance.

As regional director, I along with other local and national H3 pilots wish to officially request your assistance in opening up Torrey Pines to H3 pilots. In addition, we request your assistance in eliminating the discretionary harassment of HG pilots by instructors of PG students, when these PG students are not following the proper site rules of Torrey Pines.

As regional director, I'm sure you desire to see fare and unbiased use of Torrey Pines by all USHPA members provided their qualifications and experience levels provide them with the necessary skills to safely fly this location.

I'm sure the USHPA would find it difficult to contest that a H3 pilot possess equal and/or greater kill level respective to their own wing type, to that of a P1 and P2. Meaning, if a P1 and P2 possess adiquate skill level to safely fly at this location, an H3 rated pilot based on USHPA rating system, also possesses adequate skill levels for this same location.

Brad,

Are there any businesses, clubs and/or organizations (HG, PG, Sailplane and/or RC) that influences decisions made with respect to the operations and activities at this location outside of Air California Adventures?

Also, please correct me if I’m wrong,

David Jebb, owner of Air California Adventures, inc. and FlyTorrey.com, was previously USHPA region-3 director. And, Air California Adventures is the current leasee for this location to the city of San Diego, also operating both HG and PG schools at this location.

Thanks for volunteering your time in this matter. Please inform me how I may assist.

[sg]

Check out this graphic comparing Fort Funston, my old site, and Torrey Pines.

The red is the usable approach area. The light dirt color waaay in the back at torrey is part of a parking lot. There are occasional cars driving thru this area, but when you are back there you are far above them.

The yellow is the "easy to land spots" for landings.

The orange, is the "apron" at torrey, where ADVANCED pilots squeak in a scratch landing as a last resort. PG pilots are all over the place here and you have to make one pass and yell APRON LANDING to clear the apron for a landing in your HG.
RC = RC mound where RC guys hang out, you cannot land on it, but people do land near it on the side up hill.

The red circle with L in it, is the launch.


Fort Funston has very high bushes near the launch which throw off a NASTY rotor in northy winds shown in blue, which typically trash half the LZ. Torrey has no such obstacle.

Torrey also, is an UPHILL landing LZ. Funston is very flat.

Funston also has much higher winds making the LZ a LOT more challenging to land in. I never whack at Torrey. At funston I had to work hard and stay very sharp in the typically more turbulent air in the LZ.

As you can see, the approach and landing space is very comparable.
Ive flown both sites for several years, and without a doubt, Fort Funston is a lot more challenging to land at than Torrey pines because of the stronger and more turbulent winds.

Torrey is a lot more smooth, and you get a nice uphill landing.

Now given that Funston is an H3 site, I think the argument can easily be made for Torrey being an H3 site, especially since P1's fly there.

[spekkinout]

Way back in the day ('88 or '89 for me, memory is a bit fuzzy at the moment and I don't have my old log book on hand to check), I did my initial training in San Diego, at Little Black. My cousin was my instructor. We also spent some time at Torrey, being a newbie I didn't fly it of course, but I watched my cuz ridge soar there, and he'd do "touch and go's" for hours, multiple times...just landing and relaunching without ever stopping motion, his feet on the ground for just a few steps and then powering off again in a relaunch. Doing this day after day got him to be the best damn HG lander I've ever seen in my time in the sport (he flew pretty good too, he competed for a while and held his own in competition). But nobody could land like he could land, he'd nail his spot and his flare every time, and often on XC flights he'd pick a suitable mountainside to put 'er down on, have a beer break or whatever, then relaunch and continue on his merry way. The guy had confidence, and it was mostly due to all the training he did at Torrey.

Do they still hold HG air races at Torrey? That was awesome to watch, a great spectator competition format. For those that have old mags, or the DVD, check the May '91 issue of USHGA Hanggliding mag, the centerfold is a shot of my cousin during a Torrey air race run with John Heiney, who took the photo. I ended up buying that very glider, a Pac Air Magic Kiss FR, from him...crashed it a few years later but still have what's left of it (anybody need Kiss 154 parts or sail? ).

It sickens me to hear of HG being pushed out of Torrey in favour of PG, it's such a great HG ridge site. No way should it be rated H4, when it's on it's one of the easiest launches I've seen, and though landing looked like it could be somewhat tricky it's still not all that difficult from what I've seen. Any H3 worth his rating should be able to land there, IMO.

Sorry for my trip down memory lane, I do hope the situation at Torrey gets resolved and that hanggliding there will continue and hopefully regain it's prominence at this great ridge site.