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Odakyu-sen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: T2 with Dacron sail or T2C with Technora sail? Reply with quote #1   
Hello Guys,

I am flying a ragged-out Dacron sailed 2000 Moyes Litespeed4. I am about to order a new topless 144 from Wills Wing.

T2 (Dacron) or T2C (Mylar / Technora)?

I value handling, ease of landing and ability to "cut through bumps in the air" more than absolute glide speed. I have heard that Dacron handles better and is not "bounced around" by lumpy air so much. I also hear that the Technora sail offers a better flare window.
I am not a serious competition pilot. Here in New Zealand, we scratch a lot at competitions, and the pilot who stays up the longest is usually at an advantage.

I am in my mid-fifties and this is probably the last topless glider I will fly.

Although I will make my own decision in the end, I am keen to hear all your helpful suggestions.

Sample options:
1. T2 with a Dacron sail.
2. T2C with a ____________ sail.
3. Keep flying your Litespeed4 for another season and talk to more people / test fly a T2C. Don't rush into this.
4. Get a Moyes Gecko, ya fool!
5. What you should do is _______________________________.
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Karl_A
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
6. If the frame of your Litespeed is still in good shape, get a new S4 or S3.5 sail from Moyes. Get whatever cloth they have the most experience with and flies best.
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drachenjoe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
In our HG club, 90% of the topless gliders are either T2 or T2C ... Our local hills are just 400ft, "scratching" is often necessary to stay up until the next thermal comes in... a major factor for easy handling is low mass inertia. The biggest influence on mass inertia is the weight of the outer wings.... Thats why :
My choice would be a T2C with UVODL04....( what I understand from the discussions with our "cracks", including a vice world champion Cool

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Wonder Boy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: T2 with Dacron sail or T2C with Technora sail? Reply with quote #4   
Odakyu-sen wrote:
Hello Guys,

I am flying a ragged-out Dacron sailed 2000 Moyes Litespeed4. I am about to order a new topless 144 from Wills Wing.

T2 (Dacron) or T2C (Mylar / Technora)?

I value handling, ease of landing and ability to "cut through bumps in the air" more than absolute glide speed. I have heard that Dacron handles better and is not "bounced around" by lumpy air so much. I also hear that the Technora sail offers a better flare window.
I am not a serious competition pilot. Here in New Zealand, we scratch a lot at competitions, and the pilot who stays up the longest is usually at an advantage.

I am in my mid-fifties and this is probably the last topless glider I will fly.

Although I will make my own decision in the end, I am keen to hear all your helpful suggestions.

Sample options:
1. T2 with a Dacron sail.
2. T2C with a ____________ sail.
3. Keep flying your Litespeed4 for another season and talk to more people / test fly a T2C. Don't rush into this.
4. Get a Moyes Gecko, ya fool!
5. What you should do is _______________________________.


Get the Technora top. No matter which glider. (If you want handling and performance, the Gecko is good. Jonny did great with it against topless gliders in a recent comp)
It will hold its performance longer.
Even if 5-600 hrs down the rd if doesnt "look" as good as it might if dacron, the performance will be better. It doesnt stretch like dacron does over its life span.

Handling Considerations
There is no dramatic difference in the handling among the different Mylar materials, or between the Mylar materials and the heavier woven materials like 205 MT and Hydranet. Where there is a difference, the lightest woven fabrics and laminates tend to have the nicest handling. We strongly recommend an all-mylar top surface on T2/T2C models due to the high sail tensions.


https://www.willswing.com/hang-gliders/hang-glider-sailcloth-information/

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waveview
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
Karl_A wrote:
6. If the frame of your Litespeed is still in good shape, get a new S4 or S3.5 sail from Moyes. Get whatever cloth they have the most experience with and flies best.


Has anyone had any experience with putting one of the new Moyes RX 3.5 sails on the Litespeed S4 frames?

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AIRTHUG
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
Posted on your other thread, about wingloading... but just realized my comments about sail materials are probably more applicable here. Here's what I said (so people that might find this thread years from now don't have to skip to the other thread to see it)

AIRTHUG wrote:

Regarding top surface material choice; my advice is to not even consider Dacron as an option on a topless glider. Dacron is a woven fabric, and topless gliders experience much greater sail tensions than other wings... which will cause the woven cloth to stretch, not only causing deformation of the intended twist and planform, but also making it less "air tight" too. In terms of UV, sure a Dacron topless will last practically forever... but after not-too-long it'll be flying like a dog. And if a topless ain't performing at it's best, why the heck fly the greatest-comprise design regarding ease of use.

Mylar laminate materials, on the other hand, are very low stretch. The Technora might as well be called 0 stretch, with a stronger tensile strength than steel. Any of the Mylar options that are UV stabilized should last very well in the sun. The bigger concern should be in rolling with care when packing up, and not putting it away if the glider is at all moist or damp, as the Mylar cloth doesn't "breathe" and if it sits on a cool place mildew could grow, or in a hot place the moisture evaporates and basically steams the wing (in it's wrinkly, rolled up state).

If you're not a competitive comp pilot, I'd personally say to definitely get a UV Mylar sail, but to save your money and skip the Technora. Unless you dig the looks, plan to keep this wing FOREVER (even lower stretch than the other Mylar laminates), higher resale value (for the same reason), or as someone noted because it's so strong it can be a bit thinner and lighter. I have the ODL04 on mine, top and bottom. It does handle significantly nicer than my previous 2011 model, but I don't know- and doubt- that's because of the Technora vs UVPT or UV-PEN or whatever the hell the stuff was called on my last one.

Pick a cost effective UV Mylar, your favorite color scheme, and get that thang ordered so you have it for the summer! mosh


Or go the extra mile and wrap that beauty in Technora... drool

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Odakyu-sen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
AIRTHUG wrote:


Or go the extra mile and wrap that beauty in Technora... drool


I have heard that because Technora sails are so flat and tight, they are vulnerable to being knocked around by rowdy air. One dealer has told me that he has never been weightless so many times as when he flies his Technora T2C.

Getting biffed around in the air doesn't worry me so much, but I am concerned about being knocked out of line on final by a bubble. What is the workaround? Get on to ground effect ASAP and use a drogue chute?
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NMERider
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
Odakyu-sen wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote:


Or go the extra mile and wrap that beauty in Technora... drool


I have heard that because Technora sails are so flat and tight, they are vulnerable to being knocked around by rowdy air. One dealer has told me that he has never been weightless so many times as when he flies his Technora T2C.

Getting biffed around in the air doesn't worry me so much, but I am concerned about being knocked out of line on final by a bubble. What is the workaround? Get on to ground effect ASAP and use a drogue chute?

That's baloney! They are less prone to getting knocked around because the gliders with Technora sails don't suffer from aeroelasticity that Dacron sail equipped gliders all suffer from. Tell that dealer to hold the VG rope in his hand and pay out line as needed and the so-called weightless problem will go away.

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Wonder Boy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
Odakyu-sen wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote:


Or go the extra mile and wrap that beauty in Technora... drool


I have heard that because Technora sails are so flat and tight, they are vulnerable to being knocked around by rowdy air. One dealer has told me that he has never been weightless so many times as when he flies his Technora T2C.

Getting biffed around in the air doesn't worry me so much, but I am concerned about being knocked out of line on final by a bubble. What is the workaround? Get on to ground effect ASAP and use a drogue chute?


I disagree.
I recently owned a full Technora top / bottom 2015 T2C.
I didnt get "knocked around" any differently than I did on a Moyes 05' Dacron LS, 07' PX5 top LS, 09' Smoke top LS.
I'll tell you soon how the Moyes Technora top surface RX pro with Dacron under surface is. Wink

Drag chute will get you on the deck faster for sure. Whether or not you fly through something and get knocked around.......

You could always get a rigid wing... best of everything!

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We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.



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Tormod
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
waveview wrote:
Karl_A wrote:
6. If the frame of your Litespeed is still in good shape, get a new S4 or S3.5 sail from Moyes. Get whatever cloth they have the most experience with and flies best.


Has anyone had any experience with putting one of the new Moyes RX 3.5 sails on the Litespeed S4 frames?


The only thing common to the RX3,5 in a S4 is the X-bar and maybe the inner LE. The control frame geometry might be different to. You can modify a RS4 but even then you need new sidewires and a new batten set. I built a RX3,5 from a S4 and a S5 but it was a lot of work and the handling didn't get as good as the original.
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