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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject: Suprone revisited, the "Fenison Fly Bar" Reply with quote #1   
Hello all, Sunny Jim here,
just an updateand vid link.......this thing is still in the R and D phase but the forward portion is doing it's job extremely well by not allowing any twisting or stress to be applied to the DT's no matter how much I crank on the rear handles.....
Seems plenty strong....I have built two versions so far.
On the second version I installed a weak link on each side where the rear handles meet the rear edge of each DT so in extreme scenarios like a tumble scenario the rear handles will just break off before any undue stress is applied to the DT's..(seemed like a good idea)
Not sure how to post a link yet....Still finding my way around the HG.org site....
just look up "suprone revisited" on youtube....or maybe one you could post the link properly to this thread? Thanks...SJ

P.S. I am not "online" too much but will try and keep you all posted with updates on the inventions progress....so far I cant find any problems with it and I have flown in ALL the feet forward positions....found problems with every configuration we have tried so far....I guess that is how I thought up this bar idea...later...
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blindrodie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
mosh mosh Sunny Jim.

Just in time for a lot of aged pilots that may want to extend their flying career for a few more years.

PLEASE keep us posted...

Jim Cool

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red
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:42 am    Post subject: Suprone revisited. Reply with quote #3   
Jim,

Here you go . . .


Link


I think you are missing a good bet; you could be flaring from somewhere on those rear handles, for some serious flare authority.

. . . a good work in progress . . . Cool

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rockjock729
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:32 am    Post subject: great work! Reply with quote #4   
That looks like a great setup. I would be very interested in construction. Pictures of how they mount.
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Nicos
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
REALLY interested in this thread, as I have a C7 injury and flying in prone for too long is pretty uncomfortable.

Has your glider's wires or geometry been modified? Do you have as much pitch authority on launch/landing? Any advantages/disadvantages between supline and suprone?

So many questions. I hope to do it soon with a Airborne Sting3...
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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
thanks RED for making the link to the Video...
To answer NICO, no modifications have been made and none are required. The Geometry of a regular hang glider rigged to be flown in the prone position happens to work out perfectly with this invention.
I have perfect pitch and roll control flying my old super sport, which admittedly has easy handling. I have not experienced any loss of roll control even though my center of mass is probably a little higher than a pilot in the prone position.
Of course, I am going to get one of those super sleek, pod style PG harnesses to get all streamlined and the more I streamline, which will require lowering my upper body somewhat, the lower my center of mass will be and the greater my roll control will be, theoretically.....but the truth is I have had this set up in some serious rock and roll air and I have not noticed any loss of roll authority.
It is winter here in the NW so I have not had a chance to try it out at Chelan mid day july conditions, but from what I have experienced so far it is going to do just fine.
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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
Advantages over Supine are we can still do a hang check before launch. Cant do that in Supine. We can still use standard Dollies to AeroTow. WE have more crash protection flying ABOVE the basetube than BELOW as well as now we have an obstacle in front of us to prevent our bodies from swinging through in the event of a crash, which Supine does too, but your body has already hit the dirt....
the potential safety advantages flying suprone with this bar attached could really add up to something special. Add up the ingrediants:
1. we are flying feet first instead of head first....that is huge. Has to be. Would I rather jump off a five foot high deck and land on my feet or my head?
2.There is a basetube under us to absorb initial shock.
3.there is now a bar in front of us to prevent swing through.
4. The first thing that is going to hit the bar are the main suspension straps which are in FRONT of the pilot loaded up with one G. It is kinda like flying with a built in bumper to absorb g force.
5. AND....best thing of all....these PG harnesses already have built in airbags or foam under the spine of the pilot!!!!!!
6. Add some low stretch shock cord running Through the FlyBar and Through each downtube and we now have a "safety net' of sorts if the crash is so hard that a Pilot does indeed swing through and break the bar...
7. Add a set of good wheels to the mix....

hang Gliding has never had this much safety potential.
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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
Advantages over Supine are we can still do a hang check before launch. Cant do that in Supine. We can still use standard Dollies to AeroTow. WE have more crash protection flying ABOVE the basetube than BELOW as well as now we have an obstacle in front of us to prevent our bodies from swinging through in the event of a crash, which Supine does too, but your body has already hit the dirt....
the potential safety advantages flying suprone with this bar attached could really add up to something special. Add up the ingrediants:
1. we are flying feet first instead of head first....that is huge. Has to be. Would I rather jump off a five foot high deck and land on my feet or my head?
2.There is a basetube under us to absorb initial shock.
3.there is now a bar in front of us to prevent swing through.
4. The first thing that is going to hit the bar are the main suspension straps which are in FRONT of the pilot loaded up with one G. It is kinda like flying with a built in bumper to absorb g force.
5. AND....best thing of all....these PG harnesses already have built in airbags or foam under the spine of the pilot!!!!!!
6. Add some low stretch shock cord running Through the FlyBar and Through each downtube and we now have a "safety net' of sorts if the crash is so hard that a Pilot does indeed swing through and break the bar...
7. Add a set of good wheels to the mix....

hang Gliding has never had this much safety potential.
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rockjock729
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Aero Tow Reply with quote #9   
I understand how you can aerotow, but how do you aerotow launch on the dolly? I am looking at how you sit upright with the control bar down by your feet, I do not see how you can hold the the ropes on the dolly when launching. I fly primarely down in FL. Not many cliff launches here.
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bobknop
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
Like this ?

https://youtu.be/xmipVX_jsbQ?t=25s

Regards Bob(sitting)
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brian scharp
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
I like it, but it looks to me like there's a potential to get clotheslined by it landing like that.
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rockjock729
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:43 am    Post subject: suprone revisited Reply with quote #12   
Thanks for the video of the dolly take off. I would want some shin pads for laying like that. That dip looked a little scary. Did it occur because of your weight shifting as your legs slipped forward once they stopped resting on the dolly?
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bobknop
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
It was scary because it was my first time behind a dragonfly
Normally i do stationary tow .

The second tow and al consecutive tows went fine.The thing you have to keep in mind is that I had my legs on the dolly .So part of my weight was not supported by the hangstrap.

The next tow after this one I held on to the dolly a bit longer i lifted it slightly of the runway.This way I had a bit more wingload to compensate fo the sudden increase in weight from my legs.

For all the start disciplines i wear shin guards,need them sometimes when landing,
hard to get a good stall in landing mode.

I always fly supine never flew prone in my life,see my other videos.

Regards Bob (sitting)

Ken made this observation:

---.Once free of the dolly your legs - about a third of your body weight - swung rapidly forward and combined with a bit of pull in shifted weight rapidly forward. Your analysis fails to account for that dramatic and sudden weight shift forward caused by your legs moving from extended rearward to being swung forward of the base tube.---
Thanks,I think you have a point.

Regards Bob(sitting)


Last edited by bobknop on Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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mario
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
Nice work! I think there are a lot of people that could benefit from something like this. It will be interesting to see how clean you can get a set up like this. It may even help pg pilots make the transition easier and I agree that the non head first idea sounds safer.
Thanks for sharing.
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Markvg
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
I have flown suprone both from foot launch and aero tow. I flew on a Falcon and a Sting. I did this off and on for several years to accommodate an aching back. A close friend also flew suprone for for several years. The youtube address is to a video I posted showing a cart launch and landing. The landing is not my best but I had not moved my arms inside the spreader bar risers. There is another video on this thread but is supine not suprone. Big difference between being above the bar or below it. Suprone is above. The question was asked how to hold onto the cart. For the cart launch I set my glider on the cart, hooked in and put my legs out forward above the basetube. As the rollout started I pulled in abit to keep me planted on the cart. I did not hold on to anything attached to the cart. At speed I pushed out, lifted off the cart and swung my legs back behind the basetube. On my first attempt I kept my legs out front which caused me to pull in and fly fast resulting in big PIO. I got the rope.

What you can see in the video is a quick movement to legs behind the basetube. This was probably the tenth tow I had done suprone. It is really simple and easy to follow the tug with your head up. You can use you foot for pitch control. My friend was an H2 flying a Falcon an he was always comfortable towing this way

We used a standard 2 point bridle attached to the keel and pilot with a Lookout Mountain release mounted to a downtube. The pilot end of the bridle was attached to one of the spreader bar loops near it's connection to the harness.

I am sure the address will not appear as a link. Maybe someone with an little knowledge can fix that. I believe the video is titled hang gliding suprone.

I really enjoy this kind of flying and it gave relief to my back. I still fly suprone as well as prone. Can't get past being superman.



Link

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Last edited by Markvg on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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flyingdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
As I keep getting older, I too might like to try flying feet first and so I look forward to your continued development in this area. I share the concern expressed above about what happens with a hard nose in and that bar in front of your chest/face. Your thoughts on that concern?
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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
Geometry wise, it is not actually possible to strike the bar face first. The PG harness does not allow my body to rotate forward beyond a mostly upright position so the bar would strike my chest/upper abdomen area.
There would be two crash positions of course. UPright as if I was about to flare from the DT's and Seated with my legs above the basetube.
The first thing that would strike in the upright position if a pilot was rotated forward to flare would indeed be the chest/upper abdomen area. A weak link would be installed in the Flybar to break away at a given poundage. A low stretch shock cord would be installed inside the flybar to further decelerate the pilot and limit swing through. All this is going to be worked out in real time with a full size glider loaded with 200 pounds of sand on a zipline in my backyard.
In the seated position even more crash protection is going to be available I think since the mains are several inches in front of the pilot and the mains would be the first thing to strike the flybar.
The mains are usually loaded with one G....it is like having a "bumper" our in front to soak up initial deceleration forces....then, of course, if the crash was sever, the flybar weakling would break and the "shock cord" would further decelerate the pilot as in the upright position......
none of this has been tested as yet. Still highly speculative, but the geometry works. Keep the concerns coming. REally helps me to have more than my own brain trying to figure out the possible down points and design around them....I really appreciate the input....today it is snowing here in the NW....but soarable....hmmm...I love flying in snow....dampens the wind noise for some reason........sj
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sunnyjim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
As far as "releasing the dolly" on aerotow.....So glad you brought that up. Even though I have my aerotow rating I hardly ever aerotow here in the NW, too many mountains to run off of, so I had actually FORGOT that we need to let go of the dolly....!!!!
See, two brains are better than one....so, you've got me thinking and you are right, releasing the dolly does present an obstacle to aerotow unless.....
A second hand release that drops the cart?
So the pilot does not have to go through any gyrations?
It appears some modifications would have to be made to the dolly.
Perhaps a new device that joins the basetube to the dolly and a second release that is mounted near the pilots hand, so now there is a release to drop the dolly and a release to drop the tow line as well?.... sounds doable but needs to be invented......thanks for getting my brain working again....I love problems like this.
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brian scharp
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #19   
sunnyjim wrote:
Geometry wise, it is not actually possible to strike the bar face first. The PG harness does not allow my body to rotate forward beyond a mostly upright position so the bar would strike my chest/upper abdomen area.

I could be mistaken but it appears to me you're in front of the harness mains when flaring. Unless your PG harness is different than mine, there's little to nothing stopping a rotation to a prone position or further once in front of the mains. If that's the case, where the bar could strike would vary, but would certainly include the face.
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bobknop
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #20   
Although my setup is supine and my A frame smaller because the downtubes are both 10 inch shorter and the rake is changed-,more towards the pilot..(this is how they come off factory when ordered in supine config) I have the bottombar at about the same location.
Years ago i crashed one of my wings after the tow line touched my wing while steptowing. I made a whipstall and after a few seconds hit cornstalks 2 feet tall.
The bottembar caught and a sudden stop at high speed after that.

A strange thing happened. The bottembar never hit me,that might be because I alway start- ,fly and land with my body behind the mains.This is possible because of the different rake angle with my setup.
But what did happen was this--- my spreaderbar, which is right above my head failed-so it broke in two. Just the safety strap inside remained intact.The mains reduced the impact-....I think.


The wing was total loss all frame parts had snapped of.
But I had no injuries whatsoever.
This crash started at 118 meters above ground and i never had a chance to pull the reserve.

The shin guards I wear are for keeping the bottembar off my shins when I try to keep the nose from touching the ground.But the bb never touches my belly.
Sometimes when I am to late flaring I pushout with my shoes on the bottembar and land on my butt. instead of my butthead.
https://youtu.be/T4M4goo7W_U?t=4m25s

It might be a risk to land with your body in front of the mains,like someone already mentioned.....



regards sitting Bob.
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