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waltspoint
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Upgrade from T2 to T2C? Help me spend my money... Reply with quote #1   
Hi All you Krazy Krazy Hanglider Dudes & Dudettes!

Business was good this year and I'm ahead of where I thought I would be financially. So I wonder, are the latest T2C's enough better than a 2011 T2 with about 50 hours on it that I wouldn't be totally wasting my money to trade up?

I'm a recreational pilot. I don't care about winning races, but I would like the best wing available. My T2 is really a phenomenal aircraft. What I'd hope for in a new wing is:

Lighter control pressures, both pitch and roll
Lighter weight, at least a bit
Faster, my T2 goes 56MPh full VG bar at my thighs, in a cocoon harness
Lower sink rate, hey why not?

I talked to Ken H., from Willswing after flying Zac Major's new purple glider, and I talked to Zac, who both said that there have been significant improvements. The mylar undersurface and the new inboard carbon leading edge were mentioned.

So what do you think? Has there really been a significant improvement during the last 5 years, or should I fly my current glider 'till it's a rag, and spend my money on hookers, whiskey & blow, or maybe my kid's college educations?

Push out,
/jd
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Stallpolicer
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #2   
Buy new T2C. Cheers!
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Cool Breeze
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
Atos?
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piano_man
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
Litespseed
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Jason
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
i have a 2010 era t2c.......I dont know what is going on with your t2, but it should go much better than 56 mph.........


that being said, if i had more money than god, id get a new one........
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Felix
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
A new glider (sail) even if exactly the same as yours (design and materials) will very likely perform better.

The new type of sail materials used now and the changes in sail cut, and the carbon components will most definitely give you a better glider all around.

Of course you could probably just update yours (new sail + maybe carbon options) and save some moneys...but if you're ready for a new toy and have the cash, what better use could you find for it than a brand spanking new, full options, sexy glider?? mosh

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ksykes
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #7   
I upgraded from a 2009 T2 to a 2014 T2C, both purchased new. The newer glider basically does everything better. Particularly landing, thermalling and towing.
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once&future
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrade from T2 to T2C? Help me spend my money... Reply with quote #8   
waltspoint wrote:
....or should I fly my current glider 'till it's a rag, and spend my money on hookers, whiskey & blow...?


Do the blow, get super-aggressive and outfly all the other pilots in their T2C's, then land and celebrate with the hookers and whiskey (and maybe some more blow).
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lostgriz
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
So you are saying you don't believe Zac and Ken?....lol. No question, it's better.

If that's as fast as you can fly your current glider though, something is wrong.

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skydog
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject: Better Reply with quote #10   
My T-2-C flies faster than my T-2 did. I like it.
Bob

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AIRTHUG
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
This season I sold my 2011 T2C for a brand new all-options 2016 T2C.

It's a very different machine! I'll first say that something is up with your T2 if you're only hitting airspeeds in the 50's... while that is the placarded Vne, WW themselves say max-steady-state flight is 70 mph. My goal most flights is to keep from hitting the triple digits (seriously.)

Compared to my 2011, my 2016 is noticeably lighter weight. ODL04 sail cloth and the carbon front leading edges are expensive, but they do reduce the weight a tad.

In flight, I would say that my new wing glides notably better; I've been saying the new glider isn't a hang glider at all, it's a space ship- it just goes and goes! Sink rate is improved as well- as measured by flying the same site in the same conditions with all the same people I've flown hundreds of hours with in all variety of gliders.

Handling is better without a doubt. In the stock tune configuration, which is how I generally like my gliders, I would not say the roll or pitch pressures are much reduced as compared to my 2011 model. But I would absolutely say the wing just seems to "behave" a lot nicer. It does what I ask it to better, without talking back as much. Flying a slippery high performance glider, there is always a degree of instability in the wing. Thermalling requires a bit more pitch input than say a Falcon, and climbing with some VG on requires a bit of high siding. I'm finding the new wing does what I want it to with less input or effort. Not lighter control pressures, per se... but better behaved. This more compliant and docile nature of the wing really shows itself when coming in to land. I have a Falcon and T2C and fly both pretty even amounts... and the new wing seems to be more similar to the Falcon in the forgiveness department. My 2011 model was a great glider, don't get me wrong, but I kind of knew in challenging conditions I had to be completely on it, and if I had to make corrections during final, I then had to manage the yaw that comes with roll inputs. The new one doesn't feel so eager to spank me for being off my game. I still have respect for it- it's a high performance glider, which means it still trades forgiving tendencies for performance efficiency... but, compared to my 2011, it's just better behaved- no other way to say it.

Is it worth it? That's only a question you can answer! How much do you fly, how often will you use this new toy... versus whatever else you might spend the money on? How important is flying to you... and how badly do you want to incrementally improve your enjoyment of your flying? I will let you do your own cost/benefit analysis thumbsup

But... as you've already been told... I can confirm, the 2016 T2C is more than just a little better than a 2011 model... it's very notably improved in what I consider the most important places- more go, more fun, less work, more forgiving (still a high perf topless though, for all the newer pilots reading this and hearing it's "easy"... that's a relative and comparative statement!)

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NMERider
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Upgrade from T2 to T2C? Help me spend my money... Reply with quote #12   
waltspoint wrote:
....my T2 goes 56MPh full VG bar at my thighs, in a cocoon harness....
JD,
Something sounds odd about your harness. Sorry I missed you at Crestline recently. I think you were there. It would have helped to see you in flight. Anyhow, I did a nice test flight of the 2015 T2C 144 with ODL06/ODL04 sail and it's a very easy glider to fly with great performance. If I bought a new one I'd ask for an opaque white top surface. The heat build up inside the wing can be pretty bad as I found out the hard way when I had a Sport 2 155 on extended loan and received a first degree burn from the black anodized sprog beneath the clear top surface. It makes no rational sense to me.

Anyhow, if you harness is cut and/or rigged incorrectly, no amount of glider swapping is going to help. Send us a picture of you in level flight that clearly shows your harness. Something smells like fish.
JD

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Jason
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
AIRTHUG wrote:
This season I sold my 2011 T2C for a brand new all-options 2016 T2C.............. My goal most flights is to keep from hitting the triple digits (seriously.)


you say all these great things about the 2016 t2c

im still here with my 2010 and its hands down the best glider I've ever flown........


and yes........they will hit triple digits, and its just a little bit scary............(i hit 92 knots/106mph coming out oof a roll over when trying to beat the setting sun)
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AIRTHUG
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
This was my first T2... not even a C model... 2009ish I think?


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NMERider
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
AIRTHUG wrote:
This was my first T2... not even a C model... 2009ish I think?
Makes a good lawn dart too. crazy crazy I'm sorry you had your scan rate at 10 seconds and not at 1 or 2 seconds so I could do an animated replay and show the side view. popcorn


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NMERider
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
Jason wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote:
This season I sold my 2011 T2C for a brand new all-options 2016 T2C.............. My goal most flights is to keep from hitting the triple digits (seriously.)


you say all these great things about the 2016 t2c

im still here with my 2010 and its hands down the best glider I've ever flown.....
I put 630 hours on my 2010 T2C 144 and loved every minute of it including the few hundred hours I put on after doing the demo flight son the 2014 and 2015 models.
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waltspoint
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
Thanks All, for the good advice. Especially Once&Future, who says,

>>Do the blow, get super-aggressive and outfly all the other pilots in their T2C's, then land and celebrate with the hookers and whiskey

That's a good plan. I've discussed this with my wife, who agrees because she figures spending money on anything but hanggliding is a better idea. I'm not sure though, she might choose Fabio and Sergio rather than Kandy and Tiffany...

I did consider an Atos, which I've seen get extraordinary performance. But they don't look very nimble. And since I live in California, I've decided to stick with the local brand to avoid potential parts & service problems.

It seems like everyone agrees my current glider should go faster. Since my cat peed on my cocoon, I've switched to a Tennax3, and the glider did speed up. But there's still bar pressure at full-VG, and I doubt I'm getting to the 70's or higher speeds like people say. My old Sensor had zero or less bar pressure at full-VG. Maybe my sprogs are high? What should I Iook at?

>>your harness. Something smells like fish.
It smells like cat pee, actually. I gave it a rinse, but to really wash it I'll need to take out the chute. I'll see if I can get a picture taken next time I go fly. I would hate to find out I'm one of those dweebs who flies around with their legs two feet below their heads. I don't think so though, it doesn't feel like it and I watch my shadow on the cliff when I get the chance.

>>So you are saying you don't believe Zac and Ken?....lol.
Zac and Ken didn't give me a hard sell, in fact I wasn't thinking about a new glider when I talked to them. But they're hangglider pilots, and you know what hangglider pilots are like. Buncha goofballs...


It seems like everyone agrees the new ones are noticeably better. I remember in the DotCom boom, for a moment I had a hundred thousand dollar stock. I splurged a bit and got a fancy road-bike and an electric guitar, thinking I was being wildly indulgent. Then the DotCom bust happened, my stock went to zero, and all I had to show for it was a bike and a guitar which I got for effectively free! So if I buy a new glider and tomorrow the world explodes, at least I'll have a new glider. I think anyway, I'm not sure what it's like after the world explodes. It's hard for me to pull the trigger, since my T2 is still a baby, and we're just starting to be friends after a few dozen hours. /jd


Last edited by waltspoint on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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NMERider
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
waltspoint wrote:
....But there's still bar pressure at full-VG, and I doubt I'm getting to the 70's or higher speeds like people say. My old Sensor had zero or less bar pressure at full-VG. Maybe my sprogs are high? What should I Iook at?....
My 2006 T2 144 with Dacron sail wouldn't break 55mph when I first got it. Then I discovered the sprogs were ~80% too high as set by the factory. Download the current manual and get yourself a digital level and measure the darned things.
http://willswing.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/T2_5th_September_2012.pdf See page 40.
After I corrected my sprogs, my 2006 T2 144 would do 70+mph with ease. Later the lightweight Dacron sail stretched and I had to move my hang point forward and increase the leading edge tension on the sail in order to reduce bar pressure again. But this was a bad sail to begin with. Mylar and laminate sails did not do this. Poorly adjusted sprogs were extremely common in earlier gliders.

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Nate
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #19   
Nice thread!

I have wondered the same question.

I fly a 2008 T2C with the grey mylar top and dacron bottom. I'm low hrs compared to most but take my XC season seriously even if some years I only get 30-ish hrs.

The wing is an absolute treat to fly.

I flew a 2016 T2C 144 at demo daze and it handled awesome. Problem is that I flew it in dead, non-thermic conditions. The kind of air I never fly in so I can't tell how much of the smooth handling was wing, conditions, or placebo-effect.

Drivers towards a new wing are simply that if you like flying, you tend to lean towards the best thing you can afford to fly and enjoy flying it. Other driver is that while my 2008 isn't holding me back, it has lasted well. I expected the sail to start peeling apart years ago. These high tech sails last such a long time that it really changes return on the investment in a wing.

Happy flying, keep up the epic threads! popcorn
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dayhead
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #20   
Hell yes go buy the thing.
You only go 'round once, you worked hard and made wise decisions, so gratefully accept the reward and pass it off to Wills Wing.

I'll bet there's a flyer you know that deserves to get a good deal on your old glider, so by getting the new one you'll be able to pay it forward.

You'll be adding energy to the system, which improves it's viability. A win-win for everyone.
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