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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: 60 Mile Triangle task |
 #1 |
Flew a site called Commodore yesterday and did a 60-mile triangle task with some friends. The forecast was for unusually light winds aloft, so this was the perfect day for this!
Commodore is in the Ochre mountains, which are on the West side of the Salt Lake valley. The site is SW facing, on the other side of the mountains from SLC (flying into the Tooele valley).
There is a beautiful mountain range West of the Ochres, called the Stansberry mountains... no roads/launches that I'm aware of, but I've always wanted to get across the valley and fly them. Yesterday's L&V winds aloft was our chance...
we had a 5km exit start cylinder centered on launch (5km is huge!), and each turnpoint was a 400 m cylinder. The first waypoint was NW of launch, on the Stansberry mountains. The direction took us over some smaller foothills, where there are two other flying sites. These hills work well as thermal triggers, so it helped make the valley crossing easier. The next point was on the South end of that range, allowing us to fly the mountains as we headed South. The last point, or goal, was the LZ just in front of Commodore.
We probably should have done the triangle in reverse order, because in the mornings here it blows South, so we had a light headwind on that leg of the triangle... in the afternoons it switches and blows North, so we had a light headwind getting back to goal. It was light, but it would have been easier the other way around!
When we completed the triangle and arrived at goal (over the LZ) we were greeted with 1,000 fpm lift. Deciding it was to rough to land safely, we headed South, and then East over the mountains. We had to head South first to avoid going into Class B airspace. The next valley over had nice smooth air and light winds from the NNE. We landed at a small airport and broke down on green grass.
Great day 
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Ryan Voight
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pjwings
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Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Posts: 2005
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
#2 |
Who did you fly with? Who won the task?
I spent a week on Commodore one day. 
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:07 pm Post subject: |
#3 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| ....When we completed the triangle.... |
Excuse me. Did what? (see below) 
| pjwings wrote: |
| Who did you fly with? Who won the task?.... |
Funny you should ask. Ryan's tracklog shows that he failed to reach the first and second but did hit the third third turn-point of a 60mile task. He missed his 400m radius by what appears to be several miles, twice. Ryan only completed the first 19.2 miles at an average speed of 15.43 mph. Considering the wind was 1 mph I'd guess that he was flying a Falcon 1 225 w/ a cocoon harness and his drag chute must have been deployed. The T2C in the photo must be from some other flight 
It's obvious that Ryan is competitive as he states but like all or most of us pilots, his main adversary is and always will be himself. Task racing can greatly improve one's skills and can make the sport more exciting but can also be a real drag and take a lot of the fun out of the sport. It can also ruin the sport and foul up friendships.
For me personally. if task racing is placed in the context of personal development, skill and discipline building then at worst it becomes laborious and like practicing musical scales but it can later make fun flying that much more enjoyable. If Ryan starts nay-saying and poo-pooing competitive task racing I would ignore it as sour grapes.  
To each his own in this sport. That's why I have the highest regard for Remmoore's sentiments of non-competitive free-flight and competitive pilots who maintain good sportsmanship in their attitude and conduct.
Here's is what I was chiding Ryan about. The red circles are 1km radius turn points.
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
#4 |
Not sure what you have there Jono, the 6030 said I tagged each point (optimized waypoint) and automatically switched to the next, so I moved on...
When I arrived over the LZ it said "task completed"....
This is the first competition route I've flown with my 6030.... maybe I missed something in what it was telling me?
Care to be helpful or just poke jabs. I guess I'd be disgruntled too if a guy that hated aerobatics started doing better safer loops than I could do 
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Ryan Voight
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lostgriz
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Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 1928
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:56 pm Post subject: |
#5 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| I guess I'd be disgruntled too if a guy that hated aerobatics started doing better safer loops than I could do |
Are you saying that you hate XC? BTW 5km is a standard start circle for the events that I have participated in. Is that really considered to be a big start circle?
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"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
#6 |
hate is a strong word... but the dramatic increase in inconvenience isn't worth it for me... detracts from the time-to-fun ratio...
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Ryan Voight
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| ....Care to be helpful or just poke jabs.... |
I can do both. After all, you taught me well
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| ....the 6030 said I tagged each point (optimized waypoint) and automatically switched to the next, so I moved on...This is the first competition route I've flown with my 6030.... maybe I missed something in what it was telling me?... |
Your igc file from your 6030 states that you did not tag waypoints 1 & 2. I have independently measured your tracklog and igc file on Google Earth and it appears to me that you were using a 5,400 meter radius rather than a 400 meter radius for your turn points when you set up your competition route.
I have been screwed many time by errors in setting up my routes or in the case of the last comp I was given an incorrect route by another competitor. As a favor to the local HG school I went up to launch early and missed the task meeting so I could rig a camera on a tandem for a local news station. I had to get my route from another pilot who had neglected to write down the first turn-point was also the center of the start circle.
This was my thanks for trying to help grow the sport. The contest director was less than sympathetic about it too and further contradicted what he told me at the last comp. If I made a stick about it we would have no comp director at all since no one else wants to score the tasks. Do you see how this works? Either you bend over and take it in the ass like a man like the rest of us have to or stick to the game you know better than most pilots on the planet.
So, either your 6030 is malfunctioning or you did in fact set up your turn point radii at 5,400 meters rather than 400. By poking fun at you here I am going to save you a lot of heartache later so this doesn't happen again in a comp. But get used to this kind of crap because it gets a lot worse.
KMZ file attached.
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
#8 |
Does the IGC state what the radii were?
I definitely had it entered correctly as we triple-checked eachothers... But I think we did 5k cylenders everywhere but goal... Jo didn't like points over the high points of the mountain so we increased the cylinders.
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old newbie
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Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 812
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
#9 |
Your declared task you can set them anywhere you want. Hell sometimes I set mine so they all overlap right near launch, makes it real easy to complete the triangle.
400m is typical for turn points.
If Jonathon is going to be your score keeper you better have the task committee give him the days task.
He is just cranky since he can not do triangles as he is geometrically challenged.
Steve
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
#10 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
Does the IGC state what the radii were?
I definitely had it entered correctly as we triple-checked eachothers... But I think we did 5k cylenders everywhere but goal... Jo didn't like points over the high points of the mountain so we increased the cylinders. |
Here is what the igc file shows:
| Quote: |
AFLY07154
HFDTE090712
HFFXA100
HFPLTPILOT:Ryan Voight
HFGTYGLIDERTYPE:Wills Wing T2
HFGIDGLIDERID:WW T2 144
HFDTM100GPSDATUM:WGS84
HFGPSGPS:FASTRAX IT321
HFRFWFIRMWAREVERSION:3.34
HFRHWHARDWAREVERSION:1.00
HFFTYFRTYPE:FLYTEC,6030
HPTZNUTCOFFSET:-6:00
C4023438N11217236WTAKEOFF
C4023414N11217120WCommodore
C4035255N11237283WCdore T1
C4014782N11232534WCdore T2
C4022173N11220290WCommodore LZ
C4014737N11205554WLANDING
I013638TAS
B1916564023423N11217088WA0251902680000
etc., etc. |
The igc file never contains the turn-point radii. That is contained in your competition route which may only exist on your instrument. You can use Flychart to download your route but I do not know whether the route will contain the turn-point radii. If you turn on your 6030 and go to the competition route it should show what radii were selected.
BTW - You never came within 5K of either turn-point. You were like 300 meters and 100 meters outside each radii at the closet. My guess is that you added a 5 in front of the 4 and never deleted the 4 from your radii. This is the type of thing that can ruin your whole day. When I compete I have my 6030 set to jump to the map screen so I can visually verify that I entered the turn-point cylinder radius.
In your original post you stated....
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| ...we had a 5km exit start cylinder centered on launch (5km is huge!), and each turn-point was a 400 m cylinder... |
...and this is why I posted a response.
It stinks like a SOB to make a minor input error or misread your instrument and blow a comp in which you were beating many of your peers. I know this pain all too well from expereince and so do most of my peers at Sylmar who like to compete. Your use of your instruments need to be at least as precise as your aerobatics.
As the old adage goes: "Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:45 pm Post subject: |
#11 |
| old newbie wrote: |
| ....He is just cranky since he can not do triangles as he is geometrically challenged.... |
A square, I am! 
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Willmrx
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Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Northern Cal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
#12 |
| NMERider wrote: |
| old newbie wrote: |
| ....He is just cranky since he can not do triangles as he is geometrically challenged.... |
A square, I am! |
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Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself -- and I will obey every law or submit to the penalty.---- Chief Joseph, Washington, D.C. 1879 |
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: |
#13 |
| Willmrx wrote: |
| NMERider wrote: |
| old newbie wrote: |
| ....He is just cranky since he can not do triangles as he is geometrically challenged.... |
A square, I am! |
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chippy
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Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Sylmar
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
#14 |
Edited to remove derogitory stuff
Last edited by chippy on Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:21 am Post subject: |
#15 |
| chippy wrote: |
Pilots need to start calling you on your BS. |
I'm making a career out of it... which is why he's nit-picking my track.
The task was set up correctly, and I hit each point. Since you don't have radius data in the IGC, you don't know what the task was. I don't remember either.... but it was definitely entered correctly, as all three of us compared and checked eachothers before launching.
Your comments that mis-entered data could ruin a day isn't news, but it is one of the most accurate things you've ever said, I'll give you that. Thanks (I think?)
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Ryan Voight
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gpwrinkled
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Joined: 23 Oct 2011
Posts: 143
Location: Mesa, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
#16 |
| chippy wrote: |
Grow the sport just because you "need" to be in the limelight? Others help and assist not expecting "favors". You think to highly of yourself. Take it down a notch.
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You're off base here, bro. There are not many who have contributed what Jonathan has to the sport. It is not peaches and cream posting your good and bad flights and experiences. Many have learned much from him. Our sport is safer for many because of his efforts and willingness to show not only the skills he has but in being open about the mistakes and posting them so others won't make the same. You have no magic ability to determine his motives (limelight?) and neither do I. What I do know is that his efforts have benefitted many. If you are expecting him to be perfect in all aspects then you have set yourself up for disappointment in every person you meet.
I don't know who you are. You didn't post your name and this was your first post ever on the forum. If you are an asset to this sport, throwing stones from a dark corner isn't the best way to demonstrate it. I hope you have more to contribute than this. Best, Greg
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" If it tastes good, spit it out..." Jack Lalane
T2C 144, U2 145, <28 year break & 5 kids!>, Moyes Mega II, Phoenix 6D, Standard Rogallo, tricycle, crib... |
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
#17 |
Removed. Wasn't anything constructive.
Last edited by NMERider on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NMERider
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
#18 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| chippy wrote: |
Pilots need to start calling you on your BS. |
I'm making a career out of it... which is why he's nit-picking my track.
The task was set up correctly, and I hit each point. Since you don't have radius data in the IGC, you don't know what the task was. I don't remember either.... but it was definitely entered correctly, as all three of us compared and checked eachothers before launching.
Your comments that mis-entered data could ruin a day isn't news, but it is one of the most accurate things you've ever said, I'll give you that. Thanks (I think?) |
Dude! You stated 400 meters in your original post then later you claim it was 5000 meters? WTF? Go ahead and ally yourself w/ Chippy. The two of you deserve each other
I told you to turn on your 6030 and look at the competition route screen. Did you do this? If you did, it would show the turn radii and you could post a photo. Instead you simply post claims and empty words. I post proof and you post more of you ongoing litany of BS.
If I were you I'd stick to doing stunt flying at my home site and avoid any more public exposure. 
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ng
Joined: 05 Feb 2011
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
#19 |
It sounds like it was a great day and fun flying. How long did it take you? How high did you get?
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: |
#20 |
Base was about 16.5. We flew for a while, but the actual triangle only took us a couple hours. I was the slowest... I didn't have good positioning (alt) for the start that I took, but I was supposed to be following my friend Jo, so I did.
Long (kinda funny) story how I got low and he was high for the start.... I'll have to write that up when I have more time....
I got Bostik'd! 
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