[averen]

Anyone have a good link or know the differences between the Falcon 1, 2 and 3? I know the 3 can be short packed...and it's apparently "better" than the other 2, but this is all I've been able to find!

It seems that the 1s and 2s are going for $2k and under. But not too many second hand 3s out there!

Thanks,
Jared

[knumbknuts]

Hi Jared,

I trained on 1s and 2s and bought a 3. The 1s and 2s were 225s and very floaty and stable. The 3 is a 195 and a little less lifty in light conditions (those 30 sq. feet do come into play). But, the 195 is much more responsive and penetrates better. My first flight in a falcon 3, I was very heavy on the controls, as it was much more responsive than the others. It's a little better in higher wind conditions and slope soaring, IMHO. I definitely core thermals with greater confidence than my fellow n00bs... I don't know how much of that is the glider. The only Falcon 2 pilot I've seen core at a higher bank angle is a Wills Wing test pilot who has a F2 - 225 as his personal wing... which speaks to the quality of the whole line.

Technically, the Falcon 3 has a few improvements.

# Quick – attach nose cone enhances performance
# Optional Litestream performance control bar can be bolted on with no change to flying wires
# Standard control bar is contoured for greater comfort in flight.
# Transverse batten extends washout support provided at wingtips, allowing for reduced number of reflex bridle lines and lower cable drag
# Expanded double surface and improved sail cut yield enhanced aerodynamic
# Mylar insert in the leading edge helps it retain its curve for airflow
# Clip style battens (inside 4, each side)

Since you are obviously ruminating the purchase of one and have expressed a certain tightness of budget, I'd recommend the falcon 3 if you intend to keep it long term and an older one if you intend to flip it.

If I lived in aerotow country I'd plan on training on any falcon for a year, flipping it, and buying a sport 2.

That having been said, the resale value of the 3 should be high, as I have yet to see one up for sale. My instructor sells at such a discount, I could probably get what I payed back if I sold out of area, but I plan on keeping mine.

I'd buy a used cell phone, a used car, and used clothes before I'd buy a used glider from which I'll be hanging a few thousand feet up... but I am funny that way.

[boarini2003]

That's a great description of the differences. The reason you never seen any F3's for sale or many 1's & 2's for that matter) is that those falcons are such great gliders. Many buy them and just keep them alongside other gliders after they move up. You definitely cannot go wrong on a falcon, be it 1, 2, or 3. I know several very experienced pilots that have ONLY a falcon and love it.

[DocSoc]

While it's true that you need to figure out your intentions for the wing, it's also true that you haven't mentioned your skill level?

A single surface is a great and fun glider F3 or Freedom, the issue becomes what are your intentions for the wing itself?

Fun, Easy, and versatile enough to use on dunes? F3

Fun, More Challenging, versatile, FAST very fast...? Freedom

The rest is up to you!

Both are great instruments of flight, and an incredible feat of where or sport has come from years earlier...

Warmth,

-Soc

[averen]

[boarini2003]

DocSoc, how much faster is the Freedom compared to a Falcon 3?

[DocSoc]

Flytec 5030 digital reading was 42mph on the lowest setting, I am trying to see how much faster I can get her, to keep up with the other guys I fly with. I already out thermal them... Now if I could get 45-48 out of the freedom I could easily go from core to core in Fl...

[MysticWizard]

[boarini2003]

Mystic Wizard, what is your body weight and hook-in weight? I ask because I understand that the F3 170 can take more weight, and wills wing says that some pilots that used the F2 195 can now use the F3 170.

[MysticWizard]

Body weight 170 - 180 lbs
Hook in 200 - 220
I am 6' 2" and have been flying for two years

(the weight range depends on how much beer I drink and "garbage " I carry in my Z5 harness)

I can tell you with CONFIDENCE that with the FAlcon 3 most guys who are knowledgeable load the "wing" a little higher than WW says. Davis used a "small" one to set his distance record with it even though the web site recommended a larger one for his weight.

If you are going to buy a used F2 or F1, then you should strictly go by the weight recommendations that WW puts out. They are not as forgiving regarding weight as the new F3. But w the F3, you may wish to strech to the upper boundaries.

BTW, the F3 tows great. Very stable.

When I travel and rent F1s or F2s, I have to use the larger 195s. And, they definitely are not as "tight" handling as my great F3 170.

[averen]

I'm 6'2" at 230 now (working on the 230 part!)

It will be a while before I buy...maybe I can get down to the next size

What's the advantage of going with a higher hook in for thermal flying? Better wind penetration? My thinking says that the lighter the wing loading the better you'll go up, but you'll have less penetration and it will take more control input with a larger glider...I guess it really just depends on the flying conditions... I can always increase the hook in weight if I get a larger sized glider right? But if I go smaller then I'll have to start loosing some weight to drop it!

I can just see it now...*slouching on the couch with a bucket of chicken* "no honey, I'm trying to increase the hook in weight of my glider...this is 'training.'"

Jared

[averen]

Just looked at the Falcon 3 charts...looks like I'll be on the top end of the "optimum body weight" for the 195 anyways.

One more question.
On the site they have 3 different lengths for the glider. In bag, break down, and short pack. I get the short pack one, what are the other two? I'm guessing that the "in bag" or "break down" is what the length will be when transported...which one?

19.5' in bag
13.8' break down

Sure would be awesome if the "transportation" length was the break down size! But I have a feeling it's the "in bag."

Thanks,
Jared

[Wingspan34]

Break down size is probably with the aft leading edges unpluged from the forward LEs.

And "in the bag" is fully assembled, but folded up, in the bag.

[averen]

Thanks for the info! So the 19.5' is probably what will be strapped to the top of my car? I need to find some more info on breakdown and packing. I don't have a particularly large vehicle...and I'm guessing short packing is only something you want to do when taking it on an airline or if you really need it to be small. Not something you want to do everyday unless you want to spend an hour or so breaking it down and setting it back up! Or however long it takes to short pack.

Thanks,

Jared

[gerg]

Yep, I've got a F3/195, and it's 19.5 feet on the nose, when rolled up in the bag as it would be for normal transportation (and how I store it in my garage).

I've only got a VW Jetta, w/a Yakima rack, plus a "20ft" ladder, which actually has only 13 feet between the first and last rungs. I strap the ladder to the rack, then use rope to tie the ends of the ladder to my front and back tow-hooks (thank you VW for putting those in there). Then I've got some pipe insullation on each rung, and two more straps to tie the glider to the ladder at the front and back. Not too tight, not too loose... Essentially as loose as you can get it w/o the glider sliding off. Since there's so many rungs, there's really not a lot of forward/backward force on the glider, you just want to keep it from lifting the nose or tail with wind @ 60mph. I mention this, because I was starting to ratchet it down, and my instructor caught me and said "NO". It doesn't have to be very tight at all, or at least not as tight as I had thought.

Since I've got a 13' car, w/a ~13' ladder strapped to it, and a 19.5' burrito on top of it, it does look funny, but works a charm! The front/rear tie downs I'd say are an absolute must, and actually makes the ladder platform very stable.

[boarini2003]

Gerg, what is you body and hook in weight?

[addicted2climbing]

Hey Jared,

Your about the same size as me. I am 6'4" and 235 lbs, but I have been in the 240 range lately. I am working on that as well. I just started flying and only have a few lessons under my belt, but I am coming from sailplanes so I am learning pretty quickly. Anyhow, on my second lesson, I had progressed to a falcon and I tried an F3-195 since it was already put together. I did a few flights on it in farily light wind (3 to 6 knots or so) and I had to run pretty far down the bunny hill to get airborne. The flight was very short as well. I did maybe 3 or so flights on the F3-195 and then decided it was not working for me so much with the current conditions. I asked the instructor if there was a next size up and I assembled an F2-225 that was nearly brand new. This glider just felt right from the beginning, and in the same low wind conditions it floated quite nicely and felt perfect. I think I did 15 or so flights in the F2-225 that day and am considering buying it. However like you I would rather have the newer model if not for a better resale should I decide to sell it. The differences I noticed is the F3 has the nose cap of fabric which is nice, the tip batten is keyed into a pin at the front where on the F2 it just sits there and pops out (flaw in the design in my opinion as it has nothing to really hold it in place). The connection points from the flybar and downtube on the F3-195 has a better design and seems more robust then the F2-225. There are some minor refinements all around that I noticed. It also appears (may be wrong) that the bottom surface of the wing where it wraps around the leading edge goes a bit farther back towards the trailing edge then on the F2. As I said I could be wrong, but it looked to go back a bit farther.

So I myself am on the cusp of which to buy. Maybe once I am in the mountains I will prefer a 195, but in the sailplanes I fly I am also very close to Max pilot weight and when I fly tandem, we are over gross by 15 or so pounds. Ok within 5% if non aerobatic. Anyhow, I only notice the over gross or forward CG issues when thermaling as the stick is nearly all the way back, also I notice it very much on landing as my groundeffect is severly lacking when heavy. I figure this same scenario will transition to HG as well, and I would much rather be in the middle of the pilot range in an HG just for the sake of the ease of landings. I can only assume that in the F2-225 I will be able to stretch out a final approach a bit more and touch down at a lower speed then if I were on the heavy end of an F3-195.

I still have a lot to learn and research and I have made the decision to wait until I have at least one tandem mountain flight before I decide on the 195 or 225. As fir the short pack option, I looked at the manual online and it looks realy time intensive to do it, so I figure if ever I go on a soaring vacation I will just rent instead. Pluss loading a glider on an airplane seems scary sice bags get F'd up all the time.

Good luck and let me know what you eventualy decide on. As for the freedom, I have seen it online, but I want to support my local FBO and they sell falcons and if I buy from them i get discounted training.

Best regards,

Marc

[averen]

[gerg]

[addicted2climbing]

I routinely transport something even longer the an HG on a 13' long Mazda 6 Wagon. I am also into Sculling and my sculling shell is 24'6" long and it is a short one. I may get one around 28' long. I use a standatrd Yakima rack with ties at the bow and stern. It is a bit scary on the highway and I keep it in the 65mph range. scarier yet, is when I am on a 2 lane road and I see a Semi coming at me. The displaced wind alone can rip it off the roof if i do not anticipate it and drift over a bit. Luckily I live close to the lake I row on.

Marc