| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Should the airtime requirerment for a h3 be increased? |
| yes! |
|
25% |
[ 26 ] |
| No! |
|
64% |
[ 66 ] |
| Not sure? |
|
9% |
[ 10 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 102 |
|
|
Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2182
Location: Reno, NV
|
 Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: |
 #41 |
| lepikhin wrote: |
With your 30h barrier you'll push new pilots to unregulated sites like Hull or Slide -- which are definitely less suitable for a newbie.
|
Slide is NOT a H2 site. We have other much more suitable sites in this area for H2's. We want to keep our flying sites open, too. Out of town pilots can get in touch with us locals and a lot of us are happy to show pilots around. It's just like any other place that you would go to for the first time - check with the locals to find out the things you need to know. Don't just go somewhere and fly without finding out what's what., first.
A good place to check is the Flying Sites tab at the top of the page.
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
|
|
|
blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 3757
Location: Roeland Park, KS
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: |
#42 |
| Quote: |
| Rite of passage seems a lot like a road block that says - your skills are not important, all that matters is that you jump through my hoops. |
Bullshit. What Frank is talking about is a true "show us you can fly" attitude and abilities. This sport kills on a regular basis. It's not VooDoo Bro'. Earn the right to fly and you will live longer (maybe) and have a lot more fun N friends to share beers with in the LZ!
_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212 |
|
|
|
Mavi Gogun
1 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 973
Location: Istanbul (not Constantinople)
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: Re: entitlements |
#43 |
| Blue wrote: |
| Rite of passage seems a lot like a road block that says - your skills are not important, all that matters is that you jump through my hoops. |
That's your take away from what FPeel wrote? Really? Maybe the only necessary modification to the requirements should be adding that post to the exam for identifying "rebels without a clue". "Sorry, dude- you lack the necessary judgment and discrimination for H3- adjust your attitude and try again." |
|
|
|
davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
#44 |
Again;
1) The one skill that pilots are most deficient in is landing.
2) The second skill that they are most deficient in is launching.
3) These are the two skills that you need most to keep from hurting yourself.
4) Flying is almost irrelevant relative to these two skills.
5) If pilots got a lot more experience and practice launching and landing they would be a lot safer, hurt themselves less and become much better pilots as they mature.
I say remove the air time requirement as it focuses on the wrong skills and leads to frustration on the part of hang 2 pilots.
Focus on the skills that are actually required by new (and all) pilots and that pilots can develop with the help of an instructor (and an on board video camera).
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
|
|
|
Spitfire
3 thumbs up
Joined: 11 Oct 2010
Posts: 251
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:33 pm Post subject: |
#45 |
| davisstraub wrote: |
Again;
1) The one skill that pilots are most deficient in is landing.
2) The second skill that they are most deficient in is launching.
3) These are the two skills that you need most to keep from hurting yourself.
4) Flying is almost irrelevant relative to these two skills.
5) If pilots got a lot more experience and practice launching and landing they would be a lot safer, hurt themselves less and become much better pilots as they mature.
I say remove the air time requirement as it focuses on the wrong skills and leads to frustration on the part of hang 2 pilots.
Focus on the skills that are actually required by new (and all) pilots and that pilots can develop with the help of an instructor (and an on board video camera). |
What about
- Thermaling with others and right of way rules (I've been in a mid-air),
-Speeds to fly (especially near the ground/ridge when thermaling, or near other pilots)
Here is my schools H3 checklist: http://www.shga.com/pdf/IntermediateChecklist.pdf |
|
|
|
davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
#46 |
IMHO they pale in significance with respect to the other required skills.
Come to a competition and watch the competition pilots (who can thermal in a gaggle) land.
Let's be clear here. I feel that the USHPA hang gliding instruction program has been a huge failure when it comes to teaching the proper skills needed by pilots in their future flying.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
|
|
|
sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
#47 |
I would add...
#3 - approach skills
...to Davis' core list of critical skills that are more important than air time.
Great launch + great landing + blown approach = fly into tree line.
The first 2 hardly matter if you blow the approach
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
|
|
|
|
FPeel
3 thumbs up
Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: San Jose, CA
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: entitlements |
#48 |
| Blue wrote: |
| FPeel wrote: |
...It's all part of the rite of passage.
.... I don't believe in entitlements. |
There is no reason every student needs to do what you did.
Ratings should be based on skills and judgment - I.E. ABILITY.
Rite of passage seems a lot like a road block that says - your skills are not important, all that matters is that you jump through my hoops. |
Actually, I wish every student had to go through exactly what I did. We should all have the right instructors (it took a well organized team to teach me to fly and that is no exaggeration), great sites to fly, excellent mentors that came along seemingly just when my skills were ready for what they had to offer, flying buddies who became more like brothers than even my own that pushed me to be better than I would have ever though possible, plus a wonderful community that filled in all the remaining gaps. So, yes, I would wish that onto everyone. How horrible of me. The worst of it was taking trips to fly. These were adventures, something we planned and plotted for weeks in advance. They weren't a nuisance, they were enjoyable. Guess that's just a matter of perspective.
If you asked questions instead of jumping to angry conclusions you would find that I disdain jumping through hoops to appease any bureaucrat or other empowered entity, that I believe learning to fly is about ability. And knowledge and awareness and a host of other attributes. Ratings are merit badges, but along with them come privileges like access to more sites. It is what it is, though I'm not sure I'd change it if the opportunity arose because paying those dues is part of a process that I know firsthand works. I have closely mentored several pilots from H-II to H-IV. It was paid forward to me and I wanted to repay that debt. My "proteges" all became excellent pilots. Largely because they wanted it. Partially because I'm a harsh mistress. Yeah, I put out, but you have to want it badly enough. 
My original point was we've all jumped through the same hoops you're hating on. Some more than others. It's just the nature of the beast and there is a continuing effort to make it better because a lot of us remember what it was like. Instead of complaining try offering some thanks to those that keep our sites open. Their names are listed on your club's Website. I'm sure they would appreciate hearing from you.
_________________
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
Last edited by FPeel on Wed May 23, 2012 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
#49 |
SG is correct and I include the approach in instruction in landing.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
|
|
|
davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
#50 |
And why 500 launches and landings?
It is clear that some students would master the skills in more and some in less. (Some pilots here appear to think that they are god's gift to hang gliding.)
The point of 500 is to give instructors a marker that takes the pressure off them. If they feel that a student has really mastered the skill then they can sign them off. If they feel that the student hasn't then they don't have to. But the student realizes that they have a lot of work to do to get safe.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
|
|
|
flybop
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 646
Location: Livingston, Montana
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
#51 |
For new pilots in my area there are plenty of sites. I have flown seven mountain sites so far. As for mentors, I have two incredible mentors as well as the entire flying community that has been a huge help. The big road block here is the lack of instructors.
This brings up an entire other discussion: The need for instructors.
With that in mind I have a question. Can observers give the H3 rating? And if so, where the heck can I find one? ( One that I fly with just took off on a sail boat for a year  )
_________________
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!
H3 FL, CL, RLF, FSL, TUR |
|
|
|
day dreamer
2 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: McClure Pilot
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
#52 |
| flybop wrote: |
The big road block here is the lack of instructors.
This brings up an entire other discussion: The need for instructors.
|
It takes a commitment from the interested pilot to become an instructor, and they don't make it easy. It takes time away from flying, there is cost, and you need to set time aside to complete the criteria that USHPA requires to become an instructor. As with anything in life you gotta want it.And if it comes easy, it will lose it's value.
_________________
Always a student.
"The mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says." - Bruce Stobbe |
|
|
|
flybop
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 646
Location: Livingston, Montana
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
#53 |
Daydreamer, that is the problem with areas like mine. With a small population, the entire state has less than 1 million, there is little to no financial reward to becoming and staying an instructor. This is an amazing area to fly, but a lousy area to learn.
I will get my H3 this summer, but it will take a hell of a lot of miles and road time. But, every single second of my flying has been worth all the travel and hassel.
_________________
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!
H3 FL, CL, RLF, FSL, TUR |
|
|
|
fly,surf,&ski
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
#54 |
I had close to 10 hours within a month of getting my H2 at POTM. It took my brother and sister years living and teaching on the Outer Banks before they had aero-towing there... 
 to everyone that said it is site and location specific.... 
BTW I had well over 100 hours before Zippy signed off my H3(I never asked, he offered). That being said if I lived in California I would have have tried for it as soon as humanly possible..... 
_________________
Help preserve Hang Gliding at Torrey Pines
Join the Torrey Hawks (its free) |
|
|
|
dave hopkins
3 thumbs up
Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 722
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
#55 |
Instead of changing rating requirements glider manufacturers should rate gliders by hrs and skills needed to fly that gliders. like U-2 = 50 hrs with 25 hrs mt thermal experience. Sport -2 = 30 hrs with 20 hrs thermaling.
That way a pilot knows what the real skills needed for the average pilot would be.
dave |
|
|
|
blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 3757
Location: Roeland Park, KS
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
#56 |
| Quote: |
| ...manufacturers should rate gliders by hrs and skills needed to fly that gliders... |
As long as these ratings were "suggested" I would think that might be possible. Though I would hate to see the current ratings dumbed down.
When I started on this great adventure I was early on in college. I had no choice on how I wanted to fly due to the limitations of the 18' Standard I learned on.
Hell all I could do was take off and land over and over on the bunny hills just to get the thrill. It was as good as scooter towing, but with a lot more
wasted time and no safe way to increase altitude. I imagine I got 2 or 3 hundred 5-15 second sled rides. When my Dad saw my grades my only mode of
survival was to tell him what I was really doing! (He's a Navy Jet Jockey)
Now-a-daze one can get a wing that is hugely more capable of getting oneself into a heap-a-trouble! I guess the ol' daze did have some redeeming value for advancing ones training. 
Good thing we are self regulated...for now.
_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212 |
|
|
|
DocSoc
3 thumbs up
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 1881
Location: Miami Beach
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
#57 |
| davisstraub wrote: |
I didn't mean that you should have 500 launches and landings without a single incident, but rather you can't count the ones where there was an incident.
:-)
This would really drive instruction, especially scooter tow instruction and would finally get pilots to learn how to land (and launch) safely. It would be an economic driver to support instructors. And this is where instruction should take place.
This would also get rid of the issue of not being able to fly at all these other sites around the Bay Area. You are not looking to go to these sites to get in your hours, but staying on the scooter tow flat lands (or training hill) and working on getting your 500 launches and landings, which is where you should be concentrating.
It's a win/win/win. |
Agreed...
:-)
_________________
Socrates
Rogallo Member USHPA
"Team Chicken Hawk" |
|
|
|
flybop
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 646
Location: Livingston, Montana
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
#58 |
| dave hopkins wrote: |
Instead of changing rating requirements glider manufacturers should rate gliders by hrs and skills needed to fly that gliders. like U-2 = 50 hrs with 25 hrs mt thermal experience. Sport -2 = 30 hrs with 20 hrs thermaling.
That way a pilot knows what the real skills needed for the average pilot would be.
dave |
At first read I really liked that idea. However, where do pilots who live and fly in predomimately either ridge or thermal soaring areas fall in this scenerio?
In my limited time in this HG thing I have seen some top coastal pilots blow launches and very nearly blow launches at very high density altitude mountain sites. Foot launching at sea level (as well as landing) is very different than foot launching at 9000'!
So, IMHO, this comes back to the age old PIC situation. We all need to be individually responsible to asses our skill sets, experience and the local flying conditions each and every time. Like I have seen on a sig here: "The mountain (or for that matter, the sky and ground) doesn't care what the card says. (Slightly paraphrasing.)
_________________
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!
H3 FL, CL, RLF, FSL, TUR |
|
|
|
knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
#59 |
| While I decisively chose an option on the poll, the more I read this thread, the more I think the ratings system is almost arbitrary as it exists. It needs an overhaul, IMHO. |
|
|
|
Willmrx
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Northern Cal
|
| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
#60 |
| davisstraub wrote: |
IMHO they pale in significance with respect to the other required skills.
Come to a competition and watch the competition pilots (who can thermal in a gaggle) land.
Let's be clear here. I feel that the USHPA hang gliding instruction program has been a huge failure when it comes to teaching the proper skills needed by pilots in their future flying. |
_________________
Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself -- and I will obey every law or submit to the penalty.---- Chief Joseph, Washington, D.C. 1879 |
|
|
|
|
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
