[YuriYushchenko]

Hi,
I have a question about assisted launches. As I understand its a common and well established practice to have some wire crew assisting you in strong conditions - usually its two guys on both sides of your wing holding wires and providing you some input about wings lift.
Also, sometimes there is a third guy - the guy who holds the keel. Here is the video of keel assisted launch:


Link


It looks like keel assistance during launch is not as common as side wires assistance - it seems to be practiced more in particular regions/launch sites - - like georgia, tenessee (lookout mountain I miss you :-) .In my region - pacific northwest - local pilots don't practice it at all and it looks confusing for some experienced pilots.

It would be great to have some information from pilots who practice it:
- What is it for? What would be the main purpose of such assistance?
- How do you do it?
- What are pros/cons of this practice?
- When/where should it be used? Is it flying site specific? Some of local guys speculated that it might be useful when there is a "ramp suck" problem on launch site.
- It would be nice to have some understanding how widespread this practice is across us/other countries. Do you use keel assisted launches in your region/country?

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers,
Yuri
H2 newbee :-)

[kukailimoku]

I bet THIS opens a can of worms...!

As for me, I never wanted anyone out of my sight line who was even NEAR my glider.

[DBrose]

the can of worms was opened from the underneath side in a reverse direction...
I fly high winds a lot and I never had a keel assist ..mainly just a nose wire guy.
maybe at that spot if you do a nose wire assist wrong the wire guy falls off the cliff..
airthug will have the perfect detailed professional H5 answer for you soon ..be patient

[dave hopkins]

It is used mostly on cliff and ramp launches. Often there is ramp suck or cliff suck. A combination of the lift vector on the glider and rotor that pulls the glider forward so the keel guy can add stability there. also launching young pilots on cliffs. They often jackrabbit and pop the nose so an experienced keel helper will prevent this.
Also If I am cliff launching with only one helper I want them on the keel. They can pull me back if needed and can keep a wing from going out.
I've used this method at Walt's point, Owens valley and Whitwell ,Tenn to name a couple. Its a little scary but the best thing if you only have one helper. safest from them and you.
On Most launches out west this is not needed because they are slopes.

dave, My 2ct

[Dan Harding]

[gluesniffer]

I don't know how pilots control their pitch without a keel assist. If I don't have one I don't fly

[Paul H]

So, they continue to hang on after you launch to assist you infilght?

[keithps]

[FormerFF]

At LMFP, a keel assist is given by one of the instructors to new pilots, typically those with fewer than 10 flights, or those who are doing one of their first windy launches. After that, a pilot should only need a keel person if the winds are going over about 12 mph. The keel person should assist the pilot in getting on the ramp and into launch position. Once there, the keel person typically calls traffic, may watch the windsock, could possibly hold the keel if ramp suck starts to develop, and would assist the pilot in backing off of the ramp if he should decide not to launch.

If an experienced pilot needs assistance in maintaining pitch, that's too strong of conditions to launch in.

You will see what appears to be the keel person assisting in controlling the glider, but what he probably actually is doing is following the keel with his hands but not applying any pressure. When the pilot launches, it's kind of a natural thing to do to let your hand go with the glider in what looks like a throwing motion, More likely than not, that person isn't applying any force to the glider.

Looking at the video clip, I would say that a keel person wasn't needed in those conditions. It didn't look windy enough for ramp suck.

[Mavi Gogun]

The video at the head of this thread demonstrates how not to pick your wire crew- having a wing wire call out for a randomly available person. Don't emulate the tail wire seen there.

The tail wire crew member should stand just behind where the tail wire attaches to the rear keel, allowing one hand to grasp the tail wires from a position of strength, pulled to the chest, when playing the role of anchor is necessary. Until employed as anchor, the tail wire hand should float over the tail wire junction, finger tips in only incidental contact, ready to work.

Once the pilot has set pitch, the other hand should be near shoulder, open, under the keel tube; the keel hand floats under the keel, inhibiting downward rotation of the keel tip in response to sudden pitch up from gust, or in the case of inexperience or grievous error, progressive pitch elevation during a launch run. The keel hand should not interfere with the pitch set by the pilot- it must not rotate the keel tip up, inducing a lower angle of attack. The keel hand should remain open, allowing the entire keel to raise if the pilot chooses to allow the wing to fly before leaving launch. To this end, the tail crew must be mindful of the elevation of the entire keel, whether due to the glider loading, or changes in the ramp pitch. The keel crew should follow the keel forward as long as it is safe to do so, only extending the keel hand arm forward when following becomes a danger, mindful of not altering pitch. The hand should be open, not applying thrust. It should not be put against the end of the keel.

Since the pilot may raise or lower the keel relative to the keel crew during the launch run, the keel crew should be prepared to raise or lower accordingly. On a ramp, such as a curve, where the pilot descends faster than the keel crew, the keel crew should be prepared to allow the keel to lower relative to their height; this will mean either quickly crouching or rotating to the side of the keel so as not to unduly cause the wing to pitch down.

Keeping these things in mind, the keel crew in the video is a liability, not an asset.

Out of time, more later.

[$!><]

[soar8hours]

I am always PIC > Pilot In Command
Bottom Line: Don't grab my glider unless I say so.
I've never thought I needed a keel assist.
Just something spooky about someone holding the keel.
And they are never saying anything about their contact pressure up or down.
It's okay to have a standby back there to pull you back if needed.
I'd want to give the command to standby & not touch unless I made the call.
I don't want anyone running up and unknowingly grab my keel.
The wind is raising the nose and the keel guy is doing what?
Keel holders give me the creeps much like being around an ugly woman.
And I don't want one of those holding nothing of mine either.

[FormerFF]

[$!><]

I spent a little over a week at Henson's. It has a radial ramp similar to LMFP. (Or as close as your gonna get to it) I was the second one off that ramp when they opened the launch window the only comp day it was flyable. It was blowing in around 15mph. I said I didn't need a keel man but one was there any way. Only reason I knew was because I saw him attempting to grab my keel in the video. He couldn't actually grab it though because I was too tall for him to reach it when I kept my nose down all by myself. Instead he tried to hold the rear wires. I will admit it had no effect on my launch either way. He just wasn't needed.

So...how many mountain sites have YOU flown other than LMFP? Ever run down a shallow FSL with little or no wind? Seems to me some LMFP pilots pretty much fly there exclusively and don't really go any where else.

[$!><]

FormerFF.
I was just pointing out that the video seems to contradict what you said. Sounded like the right wire man called for the keel guy. NOT the pilot. The pilot is flying a topless...he hopefully isn't a novice doing his first windy cliff launch.

[Mavi Gogun]

[$!><]

Close enough Mavi. Same concept. Nose down when you launch. No keel assist needed.

[Mavi Gogun]

Take a look back at the original post by Yeri: it doesn't solicit exposition on why you don't appreciate tail crew or how you find the prospect of tail crew distressing, but rather seeks a comprehensive perspective from those who employ it.

[Mavi Gogun]

[$!><]

I love these keel threads. ok Mavi. Gotcha.
I am on the last battery bar on my phone. Power failure in my area. Gotta save my battery for other threads and not waste it on these keel grabbing arguments.