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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
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Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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 Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
 #161 |
Thanks for the response Nick... it helped me understand quite a bit better (and I'm sure others, too)...
In response to some of your questions:
| nickg wrote: |
| these wings are much more stable and the chances of taking collapses are significantly less but if they do go, I hear, that it can be bad and take serious pilot input to fix...sounds like they are moving more and more towards what you would call a tumble I think, but because I am an extreme novice hg I should not comment on that...so it is really a question? |
Yup, that's generally how it works in hang gliders. There have been rare instances where people tumble and, if nothing on the glider broke, they fly out of it somehow... but that's a clear minority. Usually the thing that breaks a HG during a tumble is the pilot's fat ass getting slammed into the sail or airframe. Everyone on this forum will be quick to point out that it takes significantly more to tumble a hang glider than it does collapse a paraglider... but being a P0, and having no experience on the more stable wings like you're talking about, I can't and won't make any comparison there...
| nickg wrote: |
| At the Ratrace, for example, a pilot on a highly certified glider took a collapse low and hit the hill...only injury of the meet...It is all of our nightmares, and why hang gliding is safer in that situation..i'm not sure if you can tumble your hger low, or if it is just pilot error in judging turn radius that causes hgers to hit the hill...I digress, but maybe someone can answer that for me... |
Yea, pretty much. Either the pilot just misjudges and basically flies right into the hill, or more commonly is they make some other mistake, and it results in a loss of control. Flying too slow is an excellent example. The slower a hang glider flies, the less control we have (in roll, at least)... so if a wingtip gets lifted, or the inside tip stalls and drops, it can put you turning toward the hill. Paragliders (in my limited experience) seem to experience turbulence mostly in terms of pitch, with the wing coming behind the pilot, then surging forward. Hang gliders are the opposite, where we feel (fear?) turbulence in terms of roll, one wing feeling like it's getting lifted and we have to correct to maintain straight/level flight. Again, I have very limited experience, but I would equate it to when I practiced pulling asymmetrics.... it's usually not that difficult to continue flying straight, but if you don't correct, you could find yourself turning somewhere you don't want to be (like at the hill).
| nickg wrote: |
| If they got rid of topless gliders for racing and made every meet king posted would it make it safer in hging? Honest question. |
That's a tough one to answer... on one hand, topless hang gliders are certified to the same level of standards as the rest, but that doesn't mean they are 'just as safe', because we don't know how far past 'passing' they are, or other kingposted gliders are...
We do know that the vast majority of tumbles occur on topless hang gliders (and rigid wings)... but then again, when people tend to fly in competitions, or in butt-kick conditions, they tend to be flying topless gliders (or rigid wings)... so again, hard to say...
My FEELING is that I'm just as safe from tumbling on a Falcon as I am on my topless... but I can't back that up with anything concrete. Others may very well disagree... the statistics disagree... but like I said I'm not sure they're a fair judge in this case...
| nickg wrote: |
| Im off to fly mom tandem as she is visiting. |
Cool! Ya know my Dad's been doing this for 30+ years now, and my Mom has still never gone tandem?! She's super supportive of it all... and probably knows more than most H3's.... but no real interest in actually flying. It's cool your mom's going flying with ya, I bet that's a hoot!
Thanks for taking the time, Nick 
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Last edited by AIRTHUG on Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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davisstraub
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Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
#162 |
| Quote: |
| Davis for including Adrian now thus moving away from a Fox like style... |
If you had read my previous posts (do I need to point them out to you) that I pointed to the arguments for and against two liners. Other posters here noticed that. Perhaps you just read a little too quickly. Perhaps you just jumped to a conclusion a little too quickly.
The quotes I put up are the most articulate and thoughtful ones and the most relevant. Perhaps if both sides (if there really are sides) are articulate, they will get equal billing.
I have not posted anything about the argument (discussion?) about PWC VS. CIVL because it really wasn't relevant to us.
I suggest that you have judged me unfairly and improvidently.
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Last edited by davisstraub on Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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davisstraub
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Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:07 am Post subject: |
#163 |
| Quote: |
| ...these wings are much more stable and the chances of taking collapses are significantly less but if they do go, I hear, that it can be bad and take serious pilot input to fix.. |
I believe that this has been stated many times by the persons I have quoted and at the links that I have linked to. So there seems to be no disagreement here. Why are you making me out as having one side when there doesn't appears to be more than one side?
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Last edited by davisstraub on Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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davisstraub
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Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
#164 |
| Quote: |
| It is a wake up call and I also agree with both Mark Hayman and Adrian Thomas. |
I don't necessarily agree with either them, but find them to be thoughtful, responsible, and relevant, and voices that we should be listening to. I have been listening to Adrian for years.
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davisstraub
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
#165 |
| Quote: |
| I have done three competitions at Piedrahita over the last 8 years. It was not unusual for 5 reserves a day during the British Opens there. |
Well that points back to my earlier question of what the difference in rates was between hang gliders in competition and paragliders in competition. See the earlier post.
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davisstraub
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: |
#166 |
| Quote: |
| If they got rid of topless gliders for racing and made every meet king posted would it make it safer in hging? Honest question. |
No.
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Alex
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:45 am Post subject: Re: speed |
#167 |
| pmurdoch wrote: |
There is one thing that can blow up faster than a two liner - discussions on this forum cascading into arguments....
Comp wings are not death. They are much more demanding to fly and challenge pilots to stay on top of them. Add speed bar, and there is greater risk. Add the psychology of a comp and you have a potentially volatile mix.
I don't know what it was like that day. Organizers called it mild. That really isn't quantitative. Two fatalities and three tosses is a lot. I've been told Piedrahita is the Owens Valley of Spain. If true, mild is probably not the same as mild at most sites.
Two liners are harder to fly well. They are less prone to collapse, but when they go it is ugly. They are harder to recover. Competition can put pilots into unsafe areas, and unsafe mind frames. Not a given, but a very real possibility. That, to me, is the problem. More about a dangerous mindset than a dangerous wing.
Sad situation. |
Defective wing design is just as credible as is pilot error--to explain so many deployments.
PG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into HG. |
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: Re: speed |
#168 |
| Alex wrote: |
PG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into HG. |
HG pilots that want true performance, speed and glide need to move up the evolution scale into sailplanes
We choose to fly what we want for a reason. Those reasons might be different for everyone... but why do people always feel the need to tell people what they 'should' be flying 
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Ryan Voight
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spork
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Joined: 10 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: Re: speed |
#169 |
| Alex wrote: |
PG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into HG. |
HG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into sailplanes.
I say this as a PG pilot, HG pilot, and sailplane pilot. I always get a kick out of HG pilots talking about the dangers of PG wings when they themselves fly tail-less, weight-shift, aircraft with a wing loading below 2 lb/sq-ft. 
ETA: Looks like I should've read Ryan's reply before posting. |
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Alex
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 261
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: |
#170 |
| spork wrote: |
You do realize however that HG pilots have serious injuries and die at almost exactly the same rate - right? |
Nonsense
There is no such thing as 'almost exactly' in statistical analysis, and the collection of safety data is more important than it's analysis--bad or incomplete data will always lead to an analysis error.
Last edited by Alex on Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:20 am Post subject: |
#171 |
Id like to see the per capita fatality rates between HG comps and PG comps. Anyone want to claim they are nearly identical?
Then lets compare reserve deployment per capita rates for comps. Anyone want to claim they are nearly identical?
If you consider a reserve deployment an accident, and I surely do, lets then compare per capita accident rates. Anyone want to claim they are nearly identical?
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| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Alex
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 261
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: Re: speed |
#172 |
| spork wrote: |
| Alex wrote: |
PG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into HG. |
HG pilots who want true performance, speed and glide as examples, need to move up the evolution scale (wings) and get into sailplanes.
I say this as a PG pilot, HG pilot, and sailplane pilot. I always get a kick out of HG pilots talking about the dangers of PG wings when they themselves fly tail-less, weight-shift, aircraft with a wing loading below 2 lb/sq-ft.
ETA: Looks like I should've read Ryan's reply before posting. |
I can't help it that PG have serious design flaws!
I've flown PG, HG, sailplanes, trikes, and other fixed wing aircraft. If PG didn't have such obvious limitations and safety issues I'd still be flying them. |
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spork
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:32 am Post subject: Re: speed |
#173 |
| Alex wrote: |
I can't help it that PG have serious design flaws! |
Are you suggesting you are responsible for the serious design flaws in HG? |
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davisstraub
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Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
#174 |
http://usaparagliding.blogspot.com/2011/07/death-ships.html
| Quote: |
| I haven't seen the reports, but it has become clear over the last two days of mourning that there are a significant number of pilots here who don't have the hours on 2-liners to handle them safely in this environment. There are even some who are on a 2-liner as their first comp glider. These facts were not clear to us when we voted to continue the competition. Knowing it now I understand the decision by CIVL, even though I don't like the way it was made and announced. |
Read the whole article from Josh Cohn. I just picked one representative paragraph for those who don't wish to go into greater detail.
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davisstraub
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject: |
#175 |
http://paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=p260696&highlight=#p260696
| Quote: |
| Because we are saying that current comp gliders can not be flown safely by [just] any comp pilot, [but] only by top level comp pilots, but then we need the rest of the comp pilots in order to make a viable market for comp wings... |
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davisstraub
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
#176 |
A few quotes:
From Nick Greece:
| Quote: |
| ..., these wings are much more stable and the chances of taking collapses are significantly less but if they do go, I hear, that it can be bad and take serious pilot input to fix.. |
From pmurdoch:
| Quote: |
| Two liners are harder to fly well. They are less prone to collapse, but when they go it is ugly. They are harder to recover. |
There are many other similar posts on the paragliding forum. I believe that this is the consensus and that significant experience and skill that is found only at the highest level of competition is required to safely fly these gliders.
There is nothing similar to this in hang gliding.
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mlbco
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
#177 |
| davisstraub wrote: |
| ... There is nothing similar to this in hang gliding. |
Before HGMA and DHV certification things were like this (I'm only stating this for those newcomers who don't know about hang gliding's dark past). That's why I'm surprised to find out that a sanctioned competition allows the minimum safety requirements for "comp" paragliders to be so low.
If this tragedy plays out the way the data is stacking up, it looks like the time for enhanced PG minimum safety requirements has come. This is a very good example of how our two sports need to work together more closely to avoid this kind of tragedy. In the 1970's we learned the danger of building gliders that could tuck if "flown improperly". Standards were established and the safety record improved dramatically. How did the sport of PG end up with marketable designs in this coffin-corner? Did we forget to communicate the mistakes of our past?
Steve |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
#178 |
Kids always have to touch the stove themselves, no matter how many times the parent warns them. Weve all been there.
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Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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davisstraub
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
#179 |
Perhaps I need to make it clear what I mean by "this."
The situation where we have gliders (in this case paragliders) that are rated to be flown only by a very small select elite group of very experienced pilots after many hours of flight on the next less dangerous paragliders, and then in competition only after hundreds of hours flying them in non competition situations.
Steven refers to a slightly different "this," the flying of gliders that aren't "fully" certified (although they were sort of certified as competition glider).
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ridgerunner
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: A man's got to know his limitations. |
#180 |
My 2¢...
As any seasoned pilot knows, there are dragons out there. And on any given day it is a fact that there are more dragons for a PG than for a HG. And there are more dragons for a HG than a sailplane. And for that matter there are more dragons for a 747 than a double-wide trailer down in Alabama (and yet, there are days when a dragon will tumble even one of those).
Its the same old story about the trade-off between performance and stability. The desire to win competitions leads pilots down the road of willingness to take more and more risks - the one who is willing to take more risks (all other factors being equal), more often than not wins the day. This leads to a contagious (and dangerous) attitude: "If he can get away with this, (i.e. flying in bodacious conditions or flying a borderline unstable wing), then Dammit, so can I!" Incrementally over time this leads to an irrational mob mentality where taking excessive risks becomes the norm. Its pretty obvious that paragliding competition has pushed the limits of A.) the performance/stability equations of the gliders, and B.) the conditions in which they fly them.
I've personally flown in only one structured competition - the 1986 Region 4 regionals at Dinosaur. I discovered that for me, the desire to do well enticed me into taking risks beyond those I wouldn't normally take. For me, that was the end.
Dirty Harry summed it up well: "A pilot's got to know his limitations."
...
A couple comments on Nick's post:
| nickg wrote: |
| ... If you don't throw your reserve and come 3000 feet down in either a pg or hg, you will not live. |
Not true. I'd guess the stats for HG is that roughly half of all attempted deployments are not successful and yet most are not killed. A hang glider, having structure even when broken, will frequently end up stabilizing in a flatspin with a relatively low rate of descent. e.g. A friend of mine went down in the Owens back in to 80's after getting flipped upside down while specked out and fell for more than a mile in an inverted tailspin into the rocky talus slope of the Sierra's and (luckily) came away with a broken ankle. There are many stories like that where a pilot came down on a broken glider (with a useless, tangled chute) and lived to tell the tale. However, it is certainly true that coming down with a non-functioning wing (PG or HG) is dangerous regardless of whether or not you get a successful deployment.
| nickg wrote: |
| ... there is always that need to be competitive, so perhaps you don't have much choice if you're going to compete? |
Yes, that's the root of the problem right there. See above.
| nickg wrote: |
| ... If they got rid of topless gliders for racing and made every meet king posted would it make it safer in hging? Honest question. |
No, its the pitching moment curve of the glider that determines its tumble resistance, not the presence or absence of a kingpost.
| nickg wrote: |
| .. It was not unusual for 5 reserves a day during the British Opens there. |
Every day? Seriously? If this isn't a red flag, I don't know what is.
| nickg wrote: |
| ... Pilots have to decide if they want to go, can go, and should go to these events...we are adults...we should not have to be saved from ourselves. |
I agree, its still a free country (or should be). One should also have the right to play Russian Roulette, or shoot up heroin in your basement - as long as you don't infringe upon the civil rights of someone else, or become a burden to society. These are simply choices I personally would not make. (yet)
| nickg wrote: |
| ... I think a working group should be formed on the PG Comps Subcommittee of individuals who could tackle this question. It is a wake up call and I also agree with both Mark Hayman and Adrian Thomas. |
Sounds like a good start.
I'm sorry to hear of multiple deaths as a result of this "need for speed" madness. Albeit, they died doing what they loved - and there's got to be something positive about that. |
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