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aeroexperiments
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Control and navigation in the white room Reply with quote #1   
ttt

Last edited by aeroexperiments on Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Part 2-- aerodynamics Reply with quote #2   
Control and navigation in the white room
Part 2-- aerodynamics

1) Flex-wing hang gliders are vastly more stable with the bar pulled in. Pulling the bar well in and shifting one's weight a few inches toward one side will tend to put the glider in a stable turn in that direction, even if the glider was initially turning in an unknown direction. This is not at all true when the glider is configured for min-sink speed, i.e. near trim. In this case shifting a few inches to one side will likely lead to a very steep spiral in that direction.

2) Part of the reason for all this is that when the glider has a low angle-of-attack, i.e. a high sink rate with respect to the airmass, then it must constantly roll toward the inside of the turn just to hold the bank angle constant. The glider's natural aerodynamic roll damping tends to resist this, which tends to make the bank angle decrease, so that the glider requires some low-siding to hold it in the turn. This is a very intuitive situation. The opposite is true when the flight path is rapidly climbing with respect to the airmass, ie. under powered flight with a trike or power harness. In a steeply climbing turn, the aircraft must constantly roll toward the outside of the turn just to hold the bank angle constant. Now the aircraft's natural aerodynamic roll damping tends to make the bank angle increase. In an unpowered turn at a high angle-of-attack (low sink rate with respect to the airmass) the aerodynamic damping in roll does tend to decrease the bank angle but much less so than when the sink rate is higher. Also, the lower the turn radius (i.e. the lower the airspeed), the more the faster-moving, outboard wingtip tends to experience more lift than the slower-moving inboard wingtip, which contributes to roll instability.

3) Regardless of the details, it is vastly easier to control an aircraft when it is in a flight mode that requires low-siding than in a flight mode that requires high-siding, especially if the starting bank attitude is unknown! So if control and navigation fail while attempting controlled straight-line flight, and the G-load and airspeed are rising and falling erratically, it may be possible to sort things out by entering a stable turn by shifting to one side with the bar well pulled in…

4) Your mileage in towering cu-nim may-- make that WILL-- vary.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #3   
welcome AeroExperiments to the .Org

Are you the AeroExperiments person of this site:

http://www.aeroexperiments.org/

I've enjoyed this site for some time now thumbsup

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #4   
Instrument flying a weight shift glider in the white room does not sound like a pleasant pastime. Shocked ahh
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #5   
There have been pilots who said that they could fly safely in white out conditions in the clouds using just a compass on their control bar, but that's hardly likely seeing as how that doesn't work in an airplane that is a lot more stable than a hang glider.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #6   
I've flown in clouds quite a bit - in a Quicksilver MX. I wouldn't do it in anything else. Eipper's Quicksilver design has/had a lot of dihedral in the main wing making it very roll stable. To make turns in a Quick required constant roll control input. Once you brought the stick (or your weight in a weight shift design) back to center you were flying straight. I never got vertigo either - even spending upwards of 10 minutes in clouds. Most of the time I also keyed off of where the Sun was at - lightness/darkness in the cloud. This worked well coupled with such a roll stable aircraft. And, of course, all clouds I flew in were well away from hillsides. However, the longer I was in the white room the more I pondered this Far Side cartoon....


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aeroexperiments
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: strategies and observations Reply with quote #7   
ChattaroyMan wrote:
I've flown in clouds quite a bit - in a Quicksilver MX. I wouldn't do it in anything else. Eipper's Quicksilver design has/had a lot of dihedral in the main wing making it very roll stable. To make turns in a Quick required constant roll control input. Once you brought the stick (or your weight in a weight shift design) back to center you were flying straight.


It's very clear why that sort of design would be ideal.

After all, "free flight" model aircraft have similar (even more exaggerated) design features and can fly in a controlled fashion in clouds just fine regardless of the skill level of the pilot. (Pilot? What pilot?)

One of our local flyers used to swear that a wet compass was all he needed. I think he was just lucky.

Sailplanes are not very stable. Those long wings mean that they tend to be spirally unstable. Yet in some parts of the world sailplanes have long flown in cumulus clouds with the aid of a single gyro instrument (turn rate indicator or turn coordinator) and evidently it worked well. It would be insane to try to do it with no gyro instruments. That one instrument makes all the difference between winning the contest and breaking the wings off.

Hang gliders are fairly roll stable when the bar is well pulled in. Meaning not that they tend to stay wings level (they don't), but rather that they tend not to bank too steep unless the pilot is making it happen. I.e. for all but the shallowest bank angles, they need low-siding to keep them in the turn. Aerodynamic reasons for this were given near the start of this thread.

Therefore if one is ever whited out with no instruments, a useful strategy could be to pull quite a bit and shift rather strongly to one side. That would probably put the glider in a turn in that direction even if the initial bank angle and direction were unknown.

From that point on the goal could be to keep the glider in a controlled turn in that direction until the glider falls out the side of the white room. The pilot's sense of direction and rate of turning and "feel" of the controls will be useless. The only useful piece of information will be the G-loading and the sound of the airspeed (they should vary more or less in synch.)

To overcome the mistaken clues from his mind and senses, the pilot fly should rather mechanically and not rely on the feel of the bar in his hands. He should stay pulled in, and force himself never to go all the way back to the center of the bar no matter what his mind is telling him about the direction and rate of turn. It will help to brace your arms against your body so you can tell where your body is positioned, and make specific, mechanical movements in response to the G-loading, rather than going by control pressure and "feel".

If the G-load is increasing, go a little closer to center. If the G-load is decreasing, go a little further to the side. We're only talking about a few inches of movement here. Never go past center-- what you are trying to avoid, is accidentally rolling back through a series of reversals in turn direction due to over-controlling. After all, the more the bank angle changes, the more the glider will tend to go through radical pitch dynamics (with the nose rising as the bank angle decreases, and the nose falling as the bank angle increases.) This sort of thing could eventually get you into a whipstall or tumble.

Try it sometime for a few seconds in clear air with your eyes closed with lots of altitude and no one else around, and a freshly-packed chute. It actually does work well in smooth air. Your mileage in turbulence and vertigo will vary. Instruments or avoidance are better solutions. Also, the same strategy could be used to try to get the glider into a moderate turn and get things sorted out again, after loss of control while attempting to fly with limited instrumentation (say, a GPS only, which sometimes doesn't provide much help if the glider is maneuvering too radically.)

Of course a continual turn may not bring you out of the lift any time soon. Since there is no workable strategy for flying a straight line in the white room without instruments, vigilance and avoidance remain the most important strategy in many cases!

PS one more thing to add. I said that "Hang gliders are fairly roll stable when the bar is well pulled in". That was a poor choice of words-- rather, with the bar pulled in and the glider in a steady turn, with the pilot low-siding the bar as needed, the glider is fairly stable in this specific configuration. Also, it is intuitive for the pilot to shift further to the side when the G-loading starts to slack off, and for the pilot to shift closer to center when the G-loading starts to build. But many gliders are anything but stable when the pilot simply pulls in the bar with the wings level, and freezes his body in this position and makes no further inputs. Gliders that are "yawy" or "skatey" or prone to yaw-roll oscillations on tow, also tend to enter a radical "Dutch Roll" maneuver when the pilot freezes in the middle of the bar, with the bar well pulled-in. The bank angle can be well over 45 degrees during each reversal, and the pitch attitude and airspeed changes can be fairly radical too. In theory this maneuver may actually settle into a steady state, but I've never been comfortable letting it progress far enough to find out for sure, and I wouldn't consider it an acceptable strategy for the white room! Add a little turbulence into the mix and one would be practically begging for a whipstall or tumble I suspect.... It is a myth, that these sort of oscillations cannot happen unless the pilot is somehow provoking them with his control inputs. In some gliders that may be true but definitely not in all.


Last edited by aeroexperiments on Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #8   
i have flown in the white room.When im in the white room i never pull in to much if at all.If you are pulled in,you could be doing wingovers and loops and not even know it.My 6030 gives me my direction and i always fly to the front of the cloud to ridge soar up the side of it.Never get into the white room when there are developing cu nims close by.I prefer the small cotton ball types,with no one around.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #9   
ChattaroyMan wrote:
. However, the longer I was in the white room the more I pondered this Far Side cartoon....


That is a friggin brilliant far side
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #10   
Flight instrumentation for hang gliders is getting closer then you may think. These are for skiing but could be suited for flight with only minor changes.

http://www.zealoptics.com/transcend/

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #11   
I've been lucky so far by using the following guidelines after inadvertently climbing into a cloud:

1. slow to trim or just a little bit faster...not too fast
2. return body position to center of the bar

That should have you flying in a more or less straight line

3. don't make any roll inputs

That should allow you to hold the heading you're on

A compass or GPS can help you to make tiny little heading changes to fly a straight line...but it's really difficult to keep it any more than +/- 15 degrees in either direction

4. wait until you pop out the side

It's a scary feeling and not fun at all. Even more so if there were other gliders in the thermal with you or there's a mountain back there somewhere.

I've flown with pilots who were very nonchalant about it and would even launch into a cloud bank, certain that they'd pop out the other side of the relatively thin clouds within seconds of launch.

Not for me, thanks.

I think the biggest mistake you can make after whiting out is trying to dive out of the clouds. At high speeds, the gilder is so much more sensitive to roll and pitch inputs that it's going to be virtually impossible to fly a straight line. Any little turn is going to increase the wing loading and contribute to your own spatial disorientation, causing you to make it worse with further, incorrect control inputs.

I just read a report of a pilot who tried that method and broke the glider, coming down under his reserve. Lucky for him the lift wasn't stronger or he'd have gone UP under his reserve, dragging the broken glider behind him!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #12   
It sounds like one of the tricky problems of flying blind is not knowing your current roll angle. Are there no instruments that provide an artificial horizon? At the very least a bubble level would tell you if you're level or rolled to one side or the other, right?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #13   
I used the same method as JohnPeace. The cloud I was in, had mild turbulence in it. Whenever a wing got bumped up making a turn, I would turn in the opposite direction for the same amount of time. I popped out of the cloud over Highway 1 at Big Sur permanently cured of flying in clouds.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #14   
It's an extremely easy thing to avoid.

So easy, in fact, that it's a timewaster to imagine all of the techniques, gear and instrumentation one might use to make sure they can do it successfully if it's ever required.

Just stay out of the clouds, there...problem solved!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #15   
Derakon wrote:
At the very least a bubble level would tell you if you're level or rolled to one side or the other, right?


Nope. For the same reason your hang strap remains tight at the top of a loop. Same reason you can't tell your attitude by spitting or hanging a rock on a string beneath you.

In a perfectly coordinated turn the bubble level would remain centered. In an uncoordinated turn it could indicate just about anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #16   
zippidy wrote:
Derakon wrote:
At the very least a bubble level would tell you if you're level or rolled to one side or the other, right?


Nope. For the same reason your hang strap remains tight at the top of a loop. Same reason you can't tell your attitude by spitting or hanging a rock on a string beneath you.

In a perfectly coordinated turn the bubble level would remain centered. In an uncoordinated turn it could indicate just about anything.


I dont' think that's quite true.

You're describing the bubble level as a turn-coordinator or slip/skid indicator.

But a bubble level has a bubble of (lighter) air suspended in (heavier) fluid.

The physics you're describing are all indicated by a heavier bubble suspended in a lighter fluid.

Think about it: centrifugal force won't overcome the bubble rising to the high end of a bubble level. You can try it out by holding a bubble level so it's pointing slightly down and away from you. The bubble will rise toward you. Now turn around in a smooth 360deg turn and note where the bubble goes. It remains pegged to the high end of the level.

The mass of the air bubble isn't enough that centrifugal force would overcome it's buoyancy.

On the other hand, if the pilot were using a plumb-bob, your examples would all hold true.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #17   
So far no one has mentioned: FAR Part 103.23 Flight visibility and cloud clearance requirements. Myself and many others have been reamed for posting videos of cloud flying which we all promptly removed and/or edited.

A bubble level is as useless as a plumb bob in a white out.

A GPS breadcrumb track can save you if you are inadvertently whited out so completely that the sun and Earth are no longer differentiated from the rest of the sky. Just make small corrections and keep an eye on the little icon. Bear in mind that the path of the icon can be delayed so stay on top of it.

if the GPS fails or malfunctions a cheap ball compass for $1 from Walmart can also save your skin. Just keep an eye on the ball inside the compass. If the ball starts to turn left then you need to chase it until it stops turning left. Simple as that. Stay ahead of it and you can avoid going into a spiral dive. AKA: Death Spiral.

I do not endorse cloud flying. Please follow the FARs! In certain conditions I have had clouds form underneath me faster than I could dive below the forming layer. If I was unable to remain a legal distance above the clouds and/or had to get down, then through the clouds I must go. It happens.

Be prepared and above all don't panic.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #18   
johnpeace wrote:
The physics you're describing are all indicated by a heavier bubble suspended in a lighter fluid.


It's the same physics. The heavier object/fluid points away from the net acceleration vector, the lighter fluid points towards it. The buoyancy force vector is entirely dependant on acceleration (normally gravity). When your flying and turning there are significant accelerations in addition to gravity (and in different directions).

johnpeace wrote:

Think about it: centrifugal force won't overcome the bubble rising to the high end of a bubble level. You can try it out by holding a bubble level so it's pointing slightly down and away from you. The bubble will rise toward you. Now turn around in a smooth 360deg turn and note where the bubble goes. It remains pegged to the high end of the level.

The mass of the air bubble isn't enough that centrifugal force would overcome it's buoyancy.


Your analogy is good, but you have it backwards. Hold the level so it points up slightly away from you so that the bubble is away from you. Now spin in a circle and the bubble will point towards you. The heavier liquid will move into the far end of the level forcing the air towards you.

Or, to use my original anology, get in a glider and place a level 90 deg to you so that the bubble is facing up towards you. Now execute a proper loop (positive g's the whole way) and you will see the bubble remains pointing towards you the entire time. Even when you are upside down.

I'm probably not very good at written explanations, but this really is fundamental physics. A bubble level (which depends on gravity to work) can not be used to indicate which way an aircraft is turning.

It can be (and is) used to indicate if your turns are coordinated or not.

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Last edited by zippidy on Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #19   
johnpeace wrote:
It's an extremely easy thing to avoid.

So easy, in fact, that it's a timewaster to imagine all of the techniques, gear and instrumentation one might use to make sure they can do it successfully if it's ever required.

Just stay out of the clouds, there...problem solved!

Thank You!


I spend a fair amount of time flying in clouds: legally. The FAA says I'm ok to do it and my experience says as much. I would prefer not having to worry about psychos in hang gliders trying to play in my sandbox. You wanna fly in the clouds..get an FAA pilot license and an instrument rating. PERIOD. This topic is inappropriate at best. Forget about it.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #20   
Feathered1 speaks with great wisdom.
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