[PilotGuy]

Ok, so I don't have a problem with stalls, I've done them a hundred times in airplanes and 3 or 4 times on gliders. But can someone explain why the stall in Jason's video in the parachutes thread caused him to go head over heels a few times, and if that's something I should worry about. And by the way, is that "tumbling"?

Thanks guys.

[T.B.]

That's tumblig 101....Basicly when he stalled in that position he stalled at a very high angle, thus putting the glider into a Whip Stall...there is no chance of recovery from that.
You don't have to deal with that if you do not fly outside the safety envelope..(aerobatics)...unless you flare while at altitude

[sg]

Yeah, you will not get anywhere near the same effect if you are simply flying and push out on the basetube until you stall. Notice that he was fully upright when he caused that stall. That is because hang gliders are very difficult to stall one wing enough to get them to initiate a spin, so you go upright so you can maximize how much you can push out. Watch how incredibly vertical he gets that wing before it drops thru.

Really radical stuff.

Ive flown a falcon at high altitude and pushed out hard and fast to see how well it would recover. (I checked my parachute handle first ) Wasnt an issue at all.

HG's have really nice dive recovery characteristics.

[PilotGuy]

This sounds like another "probably won't happen" situation. Does that mean it actually won't happen, as in, it's never happened to anyone here that wasn't pushing the envelope, or is there a combination of pitch and wind shear that could cause it completely unexpectedly? And how does one throw a parachute when there's a big mess of fabric and metal flipping around you at high speed? Sorry to be a pain, just a flood of questions from a newb.

[T.B.]

It will not happen due to wind shear , turbulance , rotors, as long as you are a pilot worth your ratings.

Now flying in places like Texas , Arizona , New Mexico, Nevada where thermals are extreamly strong and you go over the falls.(it is possible).....

[T.B.]

As far as throwing your para...When you are in the need, there is no time to think ..you just do it.

Better yet , don't get in a situation where you have to(((fly smart)))

[sg]

Really big air sites have thermals powerful enough to induce a tumble out of the blue, it has happened, but is extremely rare. In the last few years, seems like rigid wings have been hit with the most tumbles when you take in account their numbers. Imagine flying sites like that in a PG! Haha...

I was flying a big air site in california once when I got spit out of a scary strong thermal and went nose down with a lot of rotation, and thought I would tumble, but got my weight waaaaaaaay forward as close to the nose as possible and pulled out of it ok.

Ive never felt air that strong on the east coast though. Not even close.

If you find yourself in a broken glider, you grab your parachute handle, "look for clear air" and throw it hard in that direction. If it gets hung up, you pull it back in and re-throw it. At least thats what they teach in parachute clinics.

The parachute clinic I went to, they hung you up in your harness and had someone grab you and whip you around as hard as they could. Got you spinning and swinging like crazy, and THEN you grabbed and threw your chute as hard as you could. I sent mine all the way across the room and nail the top of the wall near the ceiling with a hard thump

But the probability that you will ever have to deploy is pretty close to nil, unless you become an aerobatics pilot. If you are interested in deploying often, take up paragliding, they practically consider it a normal occurence these days

[sg]

One more comment. I just dont really worry about this stuff much. How many wings tumble each year in the US? Usually none.. and pretty much only in the most extreme conditions or in competition situations where pilots make some strange modification to their wing, like lowering the washout,etc.

How many fatalities occur after the tumble? Usually none. Deployments in hang gliders have proven themselves extremely reliable and often, the pilot recovers from the tumble and flies away (Like Jason attempted to do).

Combine 2 tiny probabilies like this and it isnt even worth worrying over. Better to focus on having strong launching and landing techniques, because poor launches/landings are what are really likely to get you dead, not tumbles.

[danG]

Sorry to butt in here, but this tumbling thing has been on my mind, too. I live in Utah, and fly in desert conditions. The mountain site I have flown from most can get rowdy, but prob not enough to tumble... however, other places, such as Heber and King Mt (Idaho) have tumbled people. I'll fly King again (never tried Heber).

So here's my question: will flying a lower performance glider (my Northwing Horizon) reduce my chances of tumbling? Is the only way to avoid the Dragon Thermals not flying during mid-day at King Mt? but then I would lose all sorts of good days.... :-(

Just a worrysome newish pilot scared about the news from Australia, and from a tumble story of a local pilot at Heber. Gotta triple-check my harness (WW Z2... kinda old... ), but it seems like it is in good shape.

[sg]

I believe a beginner glider is less likely to tumble for at least 3 reasons.
More wash out, more dampening and a lower aspect ratio.

The australia incident was on an Atos, and those ultra high aspect ratio, drum tight sail, low twist/washout knife blades have had a disproportionately high rate of tumbles compared to flex wings. I just dont think you can compare a flex wings chances of tumbling with an Atos's. They have out tumbled any model of flex wing im aware.

Another point, even competition flex wing pilots, are not comparable to recreational pilots. These guys really push the line when it comes to dive recovery and tumble resistence by the way they tune their gliders for ultimate performance. Ive seen guys flying in XC comps who had effectively removed all their dive sticks and all the washout, basically flying a wing with virtually no dive recovery.

Im actually kinda surprised we dont have more flex wing tumbles at competitions.

At speed gliding comps, I have removed all my sprogs/dive sticks completely, but we are flying in glass smooth morning air and not likely to get strongly pitched over in a monster thermal

If we look at the number of flex wings that have tumbled over the years, which have wings that are 100% to spec, the number, I believe, is quite miniscule.

Again, I would be much more worried about things that are likely to kill you, like poor launching and landing skills.

[danG]

Thanks for the details, sg. They do help to calm my nerves...

I didn't realize he was in an ATOS... I guess I thought everyone was flying flexies. So the horizontal stab of those rigids don't give it pitch stability beyond a flexwing? wow!

[the_end]

[the_end]

[tizeagle]

[TB stated Now flying in places like Texas , Arizona , New Mexico, Nevada where thermals are extremely strong and you go over the falls.(it is possible).....

Although strong thermals are common here in Texas when getting pushed out or banking out, or "over tha falls" as TB refers even a novice should have no worries of tumbling. Now it can be ruff or turbulent but you would almost have to do something on purpose to tumble out. If in question pull in a little to pickup speed and slowly level out.

[T.B.]

Tizeagle......Notice my writing (it is possible).

Without a question this statement is true and it has happened before.

[danG]

[Jason]

[T.B.]

Jason......here's what i don't get about this ...Why do advanced pilots explain difficult stunts to beginer pilots ?.... They should be focusing on flying not aerobatics (You too SG...no offence)...

[Jason]

[sg]

It would be interesting to know if Andreas had his sprogs/divesticks set lower than factory standard.