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mapjim
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 344
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
 #61 |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| The name of this thread is a bit presumptuous. It really should be changed. |
The title is blunt, but it's essentially Linda S's own words in her blog:
"Complacency and overconfidence almost killed me. I hope someone learns something from me."
I thank her for that bluntness (and wish her well). The discussion of what may lead to such a situation, and ways to avoid, has been very useful for this learning pilot. Lots of insights...people's own experiences, effects of fatigue, locator devices. (Coming from another sport with a significant mental component, I have found that that the cognitive effects of fatigue, on judgement and on ability to think, eventually become more severe than the physical ones.) These frank discussions seem appropriate to a form of aviation. |
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darkcloud
2 thumbs up
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 356
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
#62 |
| I think KK explained it quite well... |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: |
#63 |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| The name of this thread is a bit presumptuous. It really should be changed. |
The person who is its subject didn't mind.
Also, I think that ANY hang gliding accident or "incident" involves the providence of ALL hang glider pilots. I'm talking the technical details of the situation. Names don't have to be used, but the facts (including those which are relevant regarding the pilot) should and NEED to be discussed.
If all the facts aren't known, and the subject pilot can't or won't come forth with the details, then the flying community still has an OBLIGATION to make the most sense out of what they know, as is possible.
A pilot who is afraid to air his or her significant mistakes is a threat to themselves as well as the greater hang gliding aviation community.
So, sure, some pilot could be embarrassed s/he made a skill based mistake or error in judgment and be afraid to let others know about it. They're afraid even though others are very likely to LEARN something in the process, . . . Well, that kind of person needs to get over their self centered ego problems. Keeping silent can actually hurt others. Think about THAT, and then thicken up your own thin skin a bit. Keeping lessons you've learned to yourself, . . . is SELF-ish.
And, with all due respect, discussing a hang gliding accident is not the same as some casual social gathering where somebody puts their foot in their mouth and offends some other party. Discussing a hang gliding accident is not always easy, but hiding it away is worse still.
And criticizing or critiquing the specific pilot involved is just going to happen. However, being respectful to the erring pilot during the process is always the best course. No one ever knows when their own conduct might become the subject of scrutiny. And being respectful does not exclude being blunt or direct. Sometimes being blunt and/or direct is the only way to get a sensitive issue out into plain view, in the fresh clean air.
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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mapjim
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 344
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
#64 |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| I think KK explained it quite well... |
OK, now I understand your comment, and, of course, fair enough. Someone (the original poster?) should explicitly check whether she is OK with the title, if they haven't, and if not, change it. (But if she's OK with that title (I had taken her postings to to imply so), then I think it's quite a fine (er, blunt) thing.) |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: |
#65 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| The name of this thread is a bit presumptuous. It really should be changed. |
The person who is its subject didn't mind. |
Lucky us, that she OK'ed it after the fact. Accident reports are appreciated, but I'll tell you what I didn't like about this thread:
* We are bummed by the press over-dramatizing every aviation incident. Yet, this thread is doing just that on a public forum. Yes, Linda said it herself, but on her personal blog that is probably only read by fellow hang glider pilots. She broke her arm and wrote the blog entry under the influence of pain killers. How close was she really to being killed?
* The thread picks out content from her blog, adds her name and presents it without context. By context I mean a whole blog on her flying, and flying well, plus this accident. We pick out the bad stuff and that's how she's introduced to most that don't know her.
* Remember Wonderboy's cross-posting to the OzReport of one of Jonathan's adventures? Jonathan was pretty pissed and I'd say rightfully so. If one posts to the Internet it's not nice to take it and post it somewhere else without asking for permission.
* Lastly, Linda is a forum member. At least we could have mentioned she is among us and may tell us more, once she has a chance to react.
Holger |
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HGXC
1 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 2921
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
#66 |
| Holger wrote: |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| The name of this thread is a bit presumptuous. It really should be changed. |
The person who is its subject didn't mind. |
Lucky us, that she OK'ed it after the fact. Accident reports are appreciated, but I'll tell you what I didn't like about this thread:
* We are bummed by the press over-dramatizing every aviation incident. Yet, this thread is doing just that on a public forum. Yes, Linda said it herself, but on her personal blog that is probably only read by fellow hang glider pilots. She broke her arm and wrote the blog entry under the influence of pain killers. How close was she really to being killed?
* The thread picks out content from her blog, adds her name and presents it without context. By context I mean a whole blog on her flying, and flying well, plus this accident. We pick out the bad stuff and that's how she's introduced to most that don't know her.
* Remember Wonderboy's cross-posting to the OzReport of one of Jonathan's adventures? Jonathan was pretty pissed and I'd say rightfully so. If one posts to the Internet it's not nice to take it and post it somewhere else without asking for permission.
* Lastly, Linda is a forum member. At least we could have mentioned she is among us and may tell us more, once she has a chance to react.
Holger |
 
Holger speaks the truth.
Dennis
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Organ Donation Saves Lives
Glider = ATOS B-V, Rating = H5 |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7367
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
#67 |
| darkcloud wrote: |
| The name of this thread is a bit presumptuous. It really should be changed. |
darkcloud please lighten up. I make no apology for my thread title. My use of Linda's own blog header was really meant to a tongue-in-cheek quasi-tabloidesque reference back to her own blog. If I give it new title it would be something on the order of: "How a US national champion pilot dropped her guard and broke her arm", but it just sounds so boring.  I like the titillating title better.  And it sure got a lot of hits in a hurry and probably doubled the . And let's not forget to thank Davis for including the first reference to it on the Oz Report newsletter. Davis does a fantastic job of getting the word out but as we all know, most of the active discussion is now over here on this forum. But in the newsletter department you cannot beat the Oz Report. |
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AP
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 1347
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
#68 |
The title led me to read the accident report from a perspective that made me realise how a pilot's confidence and attitude are inextricably linked to the path we take and the outcome of a flight, even if not, (as in this case), the direct cause of the accident. It made me remember how important a role confidence does play in our flights, and how it is critical in improving our skills and abilities from student right through to season veteran. It reminded me how deadly over confidence can be, and I realised I had forgotten just how important this fact is.
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A ship in harbour is safe. |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
#69 |
| NMERider wrote: |
| . . . I like the titillating title better. . . |
Try to say that three times, fast! 
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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mapjim
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 344
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
#70 |
| Holger wrote: |
I'll tell you what I didn't like about this thread:
* We are bummed by the press over-dramatizing every aviation incident. Yet, this thread is doing just that on a public forum. |
The comments about sensitivity to the pilot, and asking permission, are good.
Since you're concerned about how the public perceives this (though I doubt that most of the public sees HG.org), I'll tell you how a lowly H0, relatively close to "public", perceives it. You're concerned that "Complacency and overconfidence almost killed Linda S" will make the public think that HG is reckless and dangerous, more so than a factual report along the lines of "A hang gliding pilot suffered multiple fractures of an arm and was lying in a field for an hour before being found. Temperature was X*F, barometer Y, winds out of the WSW at 12mph. Paramedics arrived at...". In fact, the latter would make me think "HG is dangerous...nutters". The former, though dramatic, makes me think "OK, HG is dangerous. But HG pilots are passionately committed to analysing and addressing the dangers, problems and errors...which, more or less, is what makes general and commercial aviation acceptably safe, despite the inherent risks, and is why I'm willing to take commercial flights."
In terms of the discussion leaving a negative impression of the pilot, the discussion and analysis don't change my impression of the pilot, and the pilot's willingness to discuss and have discussion leaves a positive impression of someone committed to safety, skill and judgement.
| Holger wrote: |
| How close was she really to being killed? |
Hmm, an impact that shatters a humerus, too light to do so to other organs, if the details of the unexpected LZ, or of the impact, were different? And someone left out overnight with shock, even in Florida temperatures, because the phone's battery was dropped in the mud while rebooting...? Participants in my other remote outdoor sports (one I've done for 34 years) take such things seriously, and discuss them. |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
#71 |
| mapjim wrote: |
| Since you're concerned about how the public perceives this (though I doubt that most of the public sees HG.org), I'll tell you how a lowly H0, relatively close to "public", perceives it. |
Hey, I take it as good news how you received it (even if I'd say you're anything but "close to public.") If the "real public", and Linda's local personal contacts see it like you, it's all honey and peach. Wasn't such a big deal anyway.
Holger |
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Mrsposer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 2102
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
#72 |
Wow...why not just change the thread title to reflect all the drama and debate about the thread title? 
I'd say a lot more could be learned from her accident without all the childish bickering. And, I agree with Wingspan. Not talking about an accident in which you learned something could be fatal for someone else at some point. What's the point of this website if we can't discuss the good, the bad and the ugly honestly? Also, I have only met Linda once but something tells me that she's a big girl and knows how to take care of herself. So, if she is offended by the title of the thread, having it posted here or anything else, I'd just bet she has the guts to say so. Speaking from a woman's perspective, I am pretty sure that the only thing that she might/ could possibly be offended about now is the complete embarrassment and lack of respect she might/ could feel from having so few people giving her the credit she deserves for owning up to making a mistake that she admits that she learned from. But, what the hell does a woman know, right??  What a shame that a thread highlighting someone's learning experience through adversity has become the subject of such a debate on something as trivial as the thread title. For me, this thread brings home the fact that even an awesome pilot like Linda can have an accident. No one is exempt. I'm disheartened that there were more comments expressing (what I as a newbie perceiveto be) disgust at the thread title than comments reflecting relief that, thank goodness, one of our own is relatively okay after such a serious accident.
I appreciate and respect those that speak of their flying. Both the good and the bad stuff.
Good comments mapjim. I see this much like you.
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