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Cloudhopper
3 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 439
Location: Belmont, CA
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Jason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7605
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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 Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
 #42 |
| blindrodie wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Note the hands on the middle of the downtubes and the total inability to pull through the control frame and stop the whip stall before the nose became severely high with respect to the horizon. This tumble was NOT caused by the spin. It was caused by a whip stall |
Whip stall OK, hands in the middle of the DT's, no way. He's damn near at the top of the apex as the glider tucks...
Can't say that had anything to do with the tuck....  |
i think if i were on the basetube, it would have just been a nasty stall. I couldn't pull in from where I was at.
slow the video down frame by frame and the glider appears to stop rotating, my body then pivots around my shoulders/downtubes/hands and slams into the keel, 0 airspeed and the glider has no pitch stability, at which point my 180 lbs wins over the gliders 80, and the glider starts to tumble
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TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil! |
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hiflioz
3 thumbs up
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 826
Location: south australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
#43 |
Jonathon, you're receiving some great advice, with a smorgasbord of options from which to cherry pick to match the level of risk you're prepared to take - ranging from taking no advice and continuing on without change, to never attempting a spin again. Plus every compromise option in between.
I know nothing about aerobatics and have no interest in doing them whatsoever, but I DO know about that awful feeling watching something go horribly wrong. Watch Jason's vid with the sound up. At the end: "What the hell is THAT?!?"
And then you hear what all of us who have been in that situation, watching, recognise, and have done ourselves, said normally, even quietly, but with total concern and horror and dread: "Oh no...oh no... oh no... oh no."
Jason is in the thick of it at the time, it's not his perspective.
I'm guessing it's a member of Jason's family speaking, or a close flying friend. Jon, please don't see the advice you're receiving as being beaten over the head or jumped on (it's not possible to process advice objectively if you view it as a criticism or attack) . As Red says, many of us have been following your exploits for a long time and care about you. Listen to that voice in the vid, switch your perspective as you read, and you'll see that no one is attacking you, far from it.
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Cheers from Down Under
Helen
Falcon1 170, Fun 190, Malibu 188, Malibu 166, Shark 144, Litesport3, Adv, GT, SO
Last edited by hiflioz on Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sky_Walker
3 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 763
Location: Trenton, Ga
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
#44 |
Thank You Helen,
As usual you've said it brilliantly.
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Jaime Perry
H3 FL CL AWCL FSL
WW Sport 2 155 |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7483
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
#45 |
| hiflioz wrote: |
| .................you'll see that no one is attacking you, far from it. |
Helen, I don't interpret any of it as a personal attack. I failed to see any responses that addressed any of the points that I made in the original post. I thought that my statements were concise and factual:
| NMERider wrote: |
..........I entered this spin with my nose too high above the horizon............
...........had to bail out because my nose was dropping more than I liked during the second revolution..........
...........it felt all wrong..........
...........Hopefully, this conveys the feeling..........
...........I was a bit punchy when I did it........... |
There's a lesson to be learned here.
#1 - Don't enter a spin with your nose too high, or during the spin the nose will drop more than you intended.
#2 - If you watch this video carefully a few times you can really feel what it was like. I know I can.
#3 - If you're feeling punchy (fatigued) after a long flight, be on guard for becoming sloppy.
That's really all I was trying to convey but I failed to see where others were responding to the message I thought I was sending. Instead, my thread went all pear-shaped. |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
#46 |
Helen, your concern is honorable, but Jonathan's maneuver isn't comparable to Jason's, so all the pointing to this video isn't too helpful. I'm sure Jonathan got the message that you all care about his safety. We can really overdue this warning thing too, especially when we just think it may be unsafe, but don't actually know it.
Holger |
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day dreamer
2 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 3794
Location: McClure Pilot
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
#47 |
My dad used to hound me about some of the girls I dated, or some of the friends I had, but I resisted to him, and did my own thing anyways. And when the outcome would turn out as he predicted, I used to hate what he would say. "I don't want to tell you this son, but I told you so." But I had to do it my way, and learn the hard way. Kids are like that, and why wouldn't people be like that too? Don't tell me not to push the red button, and put that sucker in front of me. Jonathan is obviously devoted to this sport, and is on fire to learn everything about it. Even spins. Not a button I'm willing to push. I'm in to it, but not that into it to try any of that. Bummer if Jonathan is upset about the feedback he was asking for. Probably not what he was looking for, but it was IMO good advice all the same. It still remains his choice good or bad. Same as all of us. I have never met him personally but seems like a good dude to me, I just hope he does make the right choices so he can learn everything about this sport, and then some.NME and HGflyer to me seem like they are true ambasadors to this sport based on NME's progression and killer vids W/ narration, and watching HGflyer with his students, and how these guys obviously have a passion for HG. NME, keep on flying, and remember why you fly.NOW PISSSSS OFFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Always a student.
"The mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says." - Bruce Stobbe
http://www.mlsr.net/
Last edited by day dreamer on Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7605
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
#48 |
| hiflioz wrote: |
Jonathon, you're receiving some great advice, with a smorgasbord of options from which to cherry pick to match the level of risk you're prepared to take - ranging from taking no advice and continuing on without change, to never attempting a spin again. Plus every compromise option in between.
I know nothing about aerobatics and have no interest in doing them whatsoever, but I DO know about that awful feeling watching something go horribly wrong. Watch Jason's vid with the sound up. At the end: "What the hell is THAT?!?"
And then you hear what all of us who have been in that situation, watching, recognise, and have done ourselves, said normally, even quietly, but with total concern and horror and dread: "Oh no...oh no... oh no... oh no."
Jason is in the thick of it at the time, it's not his perspective.
I'm guessing it's a member of Jason's family speaking, or a close flying friend. Jon, please don't see the advice you're receiving as being beaten over the head or jumped on (it's not possible to process advice objectively if you view it as a criticism or attack) . As Red says, many of us have been following your exploits for a long time and care about you. Listen to that voice in the vid, switch your perspective as you read, and you'll see that no one is attacking you, far from it. |
you can tell how long it too for the chute to open based on that *commentary*
from 1:07, to 1:22 when there is a sigh of relief, Gene was the guy saying "oh no" and "oh my god" He is also the guy that says "it got tangeled up"
1:07 to 1:22, thats 15 seconds  And I got my chute out at the first possible chance.
As bad as it was being there. I have to think it was worse for my father(taping) and Gene watching
My chute opened seconds before hitting the ground, and I disappeared behind a ridge
Gene is an ER nurse, he was also the first person to arrive at the scene after I *landed*. I had already gotten out of the trees, and was running towards the LZ to let people know I was ok. I heard him crashing thru the bush towards me. And the look on his face is hard to describe. It was like he was seeing a ghost, all he could manage to say is "your walking?!" like he didnt really believe I was there
If I was on the basetube, would I have tumbled? Maybe not, but there is still a chance. I had done exits before where I grabbed the basetube still in the spin, and pulled to a 90 degree nose down freefall which was great for building speed fora loop or whatever, but thats still a 90 degree pitch down from a *STABLE SPIN* A bad exit, or a bad entry I feel its still possible to tumble while on the basetube, although less likely
One other thing to keep in mind, I tumbled, deployed, survived. My glider was inverted and broken in the trees right next to the LZ, my brother had to fly over it with no idea what the outcome was, was I alive, was I dead, was I crippled, was I dying? Is there a helicopter coming in? Id hate to have that on my mind when I am trying to land.
What if there were a helicopter coming in, now where are people going to land?
All things to think about
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TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil! |
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wilburleft
3 thumbs up
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 788
Location: FL
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
#49 |
i had an attack duck 160 back then. it was a tight little wing. but i could never fly it like that. that was sweet! |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: |
#50 |
I think this whole thread contains a great message for each one and all of us - perhaps more than any specific message meant for NME.
It's testimony to the general pilot's interests in flying safely. It sounds to me that the vast majority of us hold this lesson close and take it seriously. That's part of what makes hang gliding a safer sport today - than it may once have been.
I give  to today's hang glider pilots!
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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flakey
1 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 669
Location: Huntington Beach, Ca USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: |
#51 |
| I think they call this "Self Regulation" or something. |
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