No need to ask about spins, for me. Anyway, that's not the point.
1. You were tired; "punchy" was your word, and probably a very good one. Please consider that word, carefully.
2. You were low over a populated area. (FAA FAR 103 -not a suggestion, or USHPA rule; it's the law.)
3. Conditions were turbulent (thermals in the area).
4. Full VG on the glider. Was the VG rope even in your hand?
5. Experience level? Nothing there should have surprised you, but something did. That was the wrong place and the wrong time and the wrong air to get surprised.
6. Were any HGs nearby, with radio contact to you? Were you depending on luck, to get help for you, if the need would arise?
If you can look at each issue with 20-20 hindsight, and say "it could not have been done safer," then I have no problems.
If not, I would not fault the friends looking out for you, about how they proceed to do that. Nobody here is expecting you to teach us how to do spins. They probably hope you continue to fly, and make good videos. Advice is seldom exactly what you might hope to see; if it was predictable, it would not be necessary. People here care more about you, than your spins. Sorry if you are offended by that.
For the future, I would respect seeing conditions excellent for pushing the envelope, a fresh and alert pilot, working with good advice from very experienced pilots, a good location, with radio and visual contact with nearby HG pilots. Discussion is welcome.
Based on many of the responses in this thread it is my guess that a great deal of very serious pilot errors go unreported and undisclosed. It seems that the tendency to 'jump on somebody for his/her own good', often outweighs the consideration that said conduct has upon fostering and environment of disclosure without undue consequences.
Not one person here has asked about the effect that entering a spin with a nose too high attitude had upon the progression of the nose attitude during the spin or the g-forces, recovery, rotation rate, bank angle, etc. Good luck too all with your passing of judgment. This will be my last post.
Don't give up on us NMERider I think what Red wrote above is what we all really feal. however if you do we will miss hearing from you and your awesome videos. looks like you had great XC flgiht. I look forward to my first.
HG don't spin on accident, in order to spin you need to be flying slow, if its nasty and you are thermaling slow with the VG full tight, you are asking for trouble, its just that simple _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
would have written more responses on Monday but I was too busy doing this: http://photos.imageevent.com/aero92/sylmar/94KA4DN1-SeeYou.jpg
I landed at Sylmar after 3:25 of some of the roughest flying I've ever encountered. I was pretty tired when I got to the LZ and threw my drogue chute at 2,000' AGL rather than spinning it down. That and other recent spin practice was good practice for today's flight as I had the bar nearly jerked from my hands at least six times at altitudes from 7-11,000' and got spit sideways out of a few thermals. I never panicked during the melee since I know how my glider recovers from certain awkward positions.
I grew up often reading about light plane and sailplane pilots who got killed because they never had any spin training and died as a result when their craft spun in low to the ground. I also watched two different pilots spin their hang gliders into the ground and break their pelvises in the late '70s. Maybe if these pilots had spin training at altitude they would have both known they were entering spins and could have recovered in time to pull out or averted the full break in the first place.
As an R/C sailplane pilot I spent a lot of time practicing spins on my high aspect ratio sailplanes. I also did some spins in a Citabria, light aerobatic plane that was piloted by someone else, but the experience never left me. In addition to that I spent a great deal of time with experimental swept-wing, tailless gliders and hang glider models, tossing them either out of control or into spins. So I don't find the concept or practice foreign. Then there are all the boomerangs that I used to build and fly. Talk about your flat spin! Not really. That actually auto-gyrate and don't spin at all. Fooled you!
In truth we have a very limited amount of control over our flex-wing hang gliders. Since we mainly fly them in an extremely narrow envelope we get lulled into a false sense of security that we have far more control than we actually do. But we don't, and when our wings get tossed about like autumn leaves we panic or worse. The best analogy I can offer right now is driving a car in the snow. I'm from the mid-west where we learn to live with losing control of our automobiles when we hit snow covered ice or when we just plain slide out in snow or sleet. The people who spent time practicing donuts and slides in parking lots were the ones who avoided accidents and who didn't end up in ditches along the sides of the roads. Those who flailed to practice handling a skidding, out of control vehicle were the ones who did the real vehicular and bodily damage when they were caught ill prepared.
I don't suggest that anyone go out and practice spins on their flex wing hang gliders. After all, everyone knows it's unsafe.
I can understand practicing certain things on a HG. Stalls, speed runs, recovering from a PIO and few other things are good to practice.
Do HG really spin? You really have to piss it off to spin it but do they spin? If we are flying sailplanes or a rigid pilot. I would YES w/o a doubt. YOU would want to know how to recover from a spin.
They tuck and tumble YES. Is a loop something I want to practice FOR ME NO. Should I?
Once in awhile I do and will stall my glider. I pick a point and fly towards it as fast as I can w/o PIO'ing. I like to do little wangs. Pull in turn pull in turn. It is amazing how fast you can get momentuam going.
I like to look at my parachute handle everytime I fly. YUP i know where it is.
The thing about bats is. Most pilots go into them knowing the risks involved. Even practicing bats in forgiving conditions and alltitude. Has its risks. Like everything, when learning bats. It has a breakin period. Anyone in pursuit of improving bats, has to understand pilot mechanics, airmass or air texture and position (alltitude). Since these are the factors influencing the level of quality or safety.
Once a pilot is past the break in period of the mechanics +_ feel. It's all about knowing how different conditions or air texture effect the manuvers. Once a pilot is familiar with the mechanics + feel, a variety of air texture and window or box to work in. The need to push and challenge ones self is then limited to how close to the ground you are willing to push these manuvers (aka Mitch).
As pilots we all know you can push any of these limits harder, in rougher conditions, faster, slower, and closer. The risk involved and the extremes a pilot is willing to push or challenge him or herself. Well, I guess the long old questions humans have asked themselves since the beginning of time is. How far are you willing to take it?
Have fun fly safe _________________ The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit!
Well I guess you guys made him cry. He'll probably end up being a World Teamer. It wasn't his spin attempts that worried me. It was the statement "land it in top of the pine trees or on the hill side" that brought back memories to me. I got a bigger more important question. Can you "really" spin a T2 from the base tube?
If you know how to do it, absolutely. It's a more nose-down spin than if you get on the uprights (and in my opinion ... but yes, it'll certainly spin from the base tube.
It's hard to tell from video, but I only saw about 1/4 revolution of what I would expect a 'real' spin should look like from that camera angle _________________ Ryan Voight
hell ya jhon,nice try.Im scared of those spins but in the fall i am going to try some while over 3000ft agl.I think im going to enter the maneuver by doing a very very mild wing over, to get rotation of the wing.As soon as the wing has a good amount of rotation im going to high side the glider and push out gradually from the base bar.I think rotation of the wing before high siding and pushing out is key.
Hey dont let all these guys throw you off your game,they just care about you.Keep trying those spins,just get more altitude when exploring the unknown.Oh and your vids suk to,lol.
You leave only one analysis left to explore. If the conditions were ideal, glider was in tune, position and alltitude were sufficient. What in your opinion made the wing tuck?
I also ask this with all due respect. Knowing some wings maybe better for this manuver. And even sublte changes in conditions (temperature, layers of air, time of day...etc) all play a role in our three dimensional sport. _________________ The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit!
Since you've been beat up be almost everyone, I'll add a positive comment (from a fellow and long-time aerobatic guy). You did the correct thing to sense that things weren't quite right and recover before things got nasty. We both know it can go to hell in a hurry, but probably not without some warning (given smooth air). You got a warning, and heeded it. In rough air, all bets are off. Your entry technique of a shallow bank turn and slow speed bleed, then high side as tip stalls is spot on. Wings should come nearly level, with nose in stable pitch relative to horizon. I won't try to maintain a spin if the entry doesn't drop into a very stable rotation.
Clearly, we all have different perspectives on risk. In general, I agree with most of the posts that suggest that the combination of rough air, fatigue, and aerobatics make a bad combination. Enjoy exploring (cautiously and thoughtfully) the limits of your craft and you abilities, but eliminate all unnecessary risks when you do so.
Note the hands on the middle of the downtubes and the total inability to pull through the control frame and stop the whip stall before the nose became severely high with respect to the horizon. This tumble was NOT caused by the spin. It was caused by a whip stall
Whip stall OK, hands in the middle of the DT's, no way. He's damn near at the top of the apex as the glider tucks...
Can't say that had anything to do with the tuck.... _________________ "Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
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