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Windlord
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 Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
 #61 |
Judy and yourself may have set the standard for the small CF's with the 145's.
I applaud you both for sticking with it and also to WW for working with you.
Way to Go! 
Just out of curiosity, while at LMFP, were there quite a few other smaller
folks that this new change would benefit?
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Wingspan34
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Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: |
#62 |
It looks like the difference at the apex of the CF is as much as a 2-3 inches narrower. The tops of the down tubes are almost touching with the "new" configuration - compared to the diagram that CHassan posted.
But I wonder if the base tube might be a little narrower? That would improve the effectiveness of the mod at the top. In other words, I wonder if they moved the down tubes inwards but also parallel their old position? I wouldn't say there was any NEED to do so, I'm just wondering. 
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Imaposer
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1041
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
#63 |
| Windlord wrote: |
Judy and yourself may have set the standard for the small CF's with the 145's.
I applaud you both for sticking with it and also to WW for working with you.
Way to Go!
Just out of curiosity, while at LMFP, were there quite a few other smaller
folks that this new change would benefit? |
There is no doubt about it. This is something that Judy has been pissin' and moanin' about to anyone and everyone that would listen. She is an advocate for growing the sport by bringing more women into it. So this wasn't just about her but also a lot of women she trained with throughout her LONG time out on the hills. She needs some credit for never letting this die and pushing until the right person heard her out. So, if anyone is searching for material for a magazine article???  Of course credit also has to go to Matt Tabor for going to bat for the cause and introducing Steve to Judy. Matt's been in this business for a long time, he's designed and helped design a lot of equipment over the years and he helped come up with this solution. He also cares about his students and friends and will go out of his way to help people be successful and have a good timein this sport. Of course we can't forget Steve for listening, taking it into consideration, and making it happen. I'vesaid it before but again BIG KUDOS TO WILLS WINGS for being responsive to their customers needs. They should call it the "Judy Special" or something, and I'm hoping they do make it the standard 145 CF.
Oh yes, for sure. While Judy's may have been a somewhat extreme case, she is for sure not the only one. In fact, during our discussions with Steve and Matt last fall this point was made to Steve. During his visit to the training hills he seemed to be impressed with the large number of female students that we have coming through LO. He made statements to the effect that he doesn't see that anywhere else that he visits, or at least not to that degree.
The 145 is the smallest glider in their line up and as such it is targeted towards smaller pilots. After seeing Judy's problems, as well as other smaller women, it just didn't make sense that the CF was the same size as the larger Falcons. There is no telling how many potential women pilots were put off by their initial problems caused by the CF issue. Knowing Judy the way I do I can assure you that most women aren't as hard headed as her.  She refused to give up but I'm sure others just decided that it wasn't for them simply because they had more trouble than the larger, stonger guys. Between the narrower shoulders and the shorter stature it was almost impossible for some women to get the wheels clear of the ground and with the keel resting on their heads thye had trouble getting the AOA set properly for launch. Judy stuck it out and made it sorta work for her through a lot of perserverance but it wasn't easy and it was never optimal. This small change has made a dramatic difference and I have no doubt that had it been this way from day one Judy would have been off the mountain much sooner than she was. Those of you on here that followed along with her progress and set backs know what I'm talking about, and the majority of it was simply due to this issue.
As as side note, I'm not a large guy but I have no problems with the standard CF on a falcon 170 or my Horizon 160, but I also didn't have any problems with Judy's small CF 145 either. I think this configuration is probably the best balance for most pilots that falls within the 145 weight range.
Last edited by Imaposer on Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:21 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Imaposer
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1041
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: |
#64 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
It looks like the difference at the apex of the CF is as much as a 2-3 inches narrower. The tops of the down tubes are almost touching with the "new" configuration - compared to the diagram that CHassan posted.
But I wonder if the base tube might be a little narrower? That would improve the effectiveness of the mod at the top. In other words, I wonder if they moved the down tubes inwards but also parallel their old position? I wouldn't say there was any NEED to do so, I'm just wondering. |
Ya know, it's hard to say since I haven't looked at another 145 in a while but yes there is a noticable visual difference in spacing.
I'll have to check her BT against another 145 and see but if Chassan is correct and the standard DT length is 60" and Judy's is 61 3/16" I'm inclined to think that the corner brackets are in the exact same place and the extra length is just what was required to bring the tops of the DTs in and create a tighter angle at the apex. I could be wrong but this would be the simplest solution by allowing them to keep the same wire lengths, BT length, etc. This also ensures that she still has the same leverage in roll input with the same range of motion within the CF while prone. Since parts standardization was one of Steve's concerns I just feel like he would have taken the simplest route to acheive the desired result with the fewest parts affected. Hopefully now that we are entering the flying season we'll have a chance to compare Judy's glider side by side with a few of our friends 145s, take a few measurements andsee exactly what the differences are.
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Mrsposer
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 2102
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
#65 |
I just cannot express how happy I am!  I LOVE my new glider. This is the perfect solution for the problems I was having. By making this change I really think that a lot more women or even smaller men will be able to really enjoy the sport of hang gliding. I feel much safer on launch and I don't need all that bulky and unattractive padding. I feel much more in tune with this glider already. I now have an adequate amount of space above my head so that the glider is not resting on top of my helmet. I have a fair amount of clearance for the wheels. And, I am able to set the glider properly on my shoulders and really feel wedged up in it which allows me to be able to keep my wings balanced and get the nose of the glider down lower than I could before. Even with all the padding we had on the school Falcons I was really struggling. At one point I was even unsure if I was going to be able to really continue flying simply due to the equipment. It seemed that I was always watching everyone learn things that it took me 10 times as long to be able to do. While I was never a "natural" at this sport, I do think that if the equipment had been designed in such a way (as my glider is now) to allow optimum learning I would have picked a lot of things up a lot quicker. I think that is what bothers me the most; how many people (women and men) just thought that this was the way the equipment was going to be and maybe they needed to pick another hobby? I have talked to countless females that have had the same problem as me. They are too small for the equipment. The solution always seemed simple to me. Design a glider that a small person feels comfortable with. If you are afraid of your equipment it can cause just as many problems and accidents as being too confident in your abilities.
So, this past weekend, I had no intentions of doing anything except to begin the learning process on my new glider. It probably seems silly to most people when I say that I have to learn this glider. After all it's just a Falcon 145, right? But, it's not. With the smaller control frame I feel,for the first time,
I am really going to be able to do this. This sport is within my reach. Two years of hard work might actually pay off for me. Most people will probably never even understand that. But just think back to when you learned to fly and how great it was. Think about the rush you felt on your first mountain launch, all the emotions that came with it. Think about buying your first glider and absolutely KNOWING you would be able to fly it. Think back to the first flight on that glider, whether it was on the training hills or off a mountain, and how much pride you felt in owning that wing. Well it was all the same for me....times a hundred!
This past weekend was probably more fun for me than even getting my first mountain flight. I was a bundle of excitement Sat. morning. Getting to, finally, fly my new glider was awesome even if it was just on the big hill. This glider seems so much easier to launch than what I am used to. Since I had not flown in quite a while I wanted to work on my launches. I had decided that Sat. was going to just be a fun flying day. I wanted to get to know my new baby and learn what a glider is really supposed to feel like on launch. On Sunday I started to practice some turns. I didn't get quite as many flights as I was hoping due to sore legs. But, I had to use some good judgement and break down both days a little sooner than I really wanted. I don't want to risk a pulled muscle right at the beginning of the flying season with this new glider and all the learning I have yet to do. I think I got around 15 flights off the big hill in the two days though and that was fine for my first weekend back. I think it might take a little while to get used to it but I already feel like I have better control than I did before-even with a seven month absence from flying. I feel like my flying will only grow from here.
I do really appreciate Matt Tabor's and Steve Pearson's willingness to listen to me and find a solution that would keep me in the air. There were many times during my training that I would just get so frustrated. Of course, the instructors were the ones that had to put up with me and they really were the encouragement that I needed. Their motivation is what kept me motivated. They consoled me when I was in tears or near tears and they assured me that everything would come together. And finally it has!
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gerg
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 1094
Location: Mill Creek, WA (Near Seattle...)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
#66 |
Simply awesome. Welcome to the skies! 
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CHassan
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 4593
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
#67 |
I'm happy for you Mrs.P! You've had a rough time and struggled thru things most of us don't even think about. Yet here you are still plugging away and now you have the proper sized tools! It'll be great to hear about your first soaring flight!
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phantomflier
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
#68 |
| Way to go Mrs. P!! My wife Beth has always complained about that very thing! But we're never around long enough to make a dif. Now if you please, can you see to it that all LMFP training 140 and 145's are outfitted the same way?? Thanks. Mr and Mrs Phantom and kids are coming to Lookout May 10 11 12. And again over the Fourth of July! Got to get our $$ worth out of the package deal for Beth.
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Imaposer
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1041
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
#69 |
| phantomflier wrote: |
| Way to go Mrs. P!! My wife Beth has always complained about that very thing! But we're never around long enough to make a dif. Now if you please, can you see to it that all LMFP training 140 and 145's are outfitted the same way?? Thanks. Mr and Mrs Phantom and kids are coming to Lookout May 10 11 12. And again over the Fourth of July! Got to get our $$ worth out of the package deal for Beth. |
We're planning to be there the weekend of the 9th and 10th but will be going home Sunday afternoon. What time are you arriving? Hopefully we can meet ya'll. I beleive we'll be there around the weekend of the 4th too.
Where is Beth in her training? I believe they sold their last 140 last year and have 145s available for training. They did introduce a "new" training glider for small pilots recently ( a Condor 170 with small CF) but it is only used on the small hill for learning to launch - fly straight - land, as I don't think they turn too well. I've heard that it has helped with the problem some women were having in their early training. Of course then they have to transition to the 145 so I don't know how that's going. I don't know if Matt is planning a retrofit on any of his existing training gliders or not but I can ask. But if Beth is small and having the same troubles as Judy you can assure her that a solution does exist.
In fact we would like to get this message out to as many people as possible so hopefully someone that may be having, or has had, this trouble and is getting/got discouraged will know that there is an answer to their troubles. Hopefully this will help others become pilots and help Wills Wings sell more gliders.
PM Judy or me and we'll exchange numbers so we can hopefully meet up sometime this summer. I've been threatening to get us all "The Posers" T-shirts so we can meet some of the HG.Org folks when they pass through LO.
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phantomflier
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 845
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: |
#70 |
Hey Randy,
yup, we'll be there early on Sunday the 10th, probably at the training hill. Beth is on the big hill, earned her H1 and is probably beyond the Condor's benefits. She had a lasting shoulder issue after her first couple of days training there. But later training has been better. I don't know if she'll get off the mountain in these next two trips or not. I don't know if it's in the cards actually! But she loves the training, and I love to watch her! My son Nick is fast approaching the 100lb mark, so he's just itching to do it- another year or so, I think.
I'll pm you my number before we leave! Hope to see you guys- Gary
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Mrsposer
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 2102
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
#71 |
| phantomflier wrote: |
| Way to go Mrs. P!! My wife Beth has always complained about that very thing! But we're never around long enough to make a dif. Now if you please, can you see to it that all LMFP training 140 and 145's are outfitted the same way?? Thanks. Mr and Mrs Phantom and kids are coming to Lookout May 10 11 12. And again over the Fourth of July! Got to get our $$ worth out of the package deal for Beth. |
Can't wait to finally meet you folks!
It certainly would be awesome if the training 145s had the smaller apex. I'd bet that Matt would sell a lot more equipment if he were able to do a retrofit. The only downside to that is there are only 2 Falcon 145s for training and making any type of change would put one of them out of service for a little while. On the other hand, Matt has been pretty receptive to helping to make these changes possible for my glider and he is getting a lot more women on the hills. I think that's why they fashioned the smaller Condor that Randy was talking about.
One thing I forgot to mention also... when I was on the hills the other day I had another female mention to me that she had also had the same problem while training. I let her pick up my glider and she really liked the fit.
Also, when I was expressing my gratitude in my earlier post about Matt, Steve and the staff at Lookout Mountain helping me and keeping me motivated, I neglected to mention some very important things. First, Randy was instrumental in getting me off the hills. He sacrificed his own flying in an effort to help me. He drove the ATV so that I could get as many flights as I could. He went to bat for me whenever I felt like no one was hearing me. He even stood up for me on here a time or two.  I really appreciate him. And, finally, this website has also been a very important learning and motivational tool. While I know that some of you more experienced pilots would like to see more forum categories (and that would be great) I would hate to see this site ever stray far from its original purpose. I think the exposure the sport receives from this site, the willingness of the experienced pilots to answer newbie questions and the overall encouragement and support they offer to newer pilots is outstanding. You can just feel the genuine happiness one has for another when they start their training, buy a glider and get first mountain flights. I hope this site will always be newbie friendly. Thanks again SG for doing all that you do!
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DanTuck
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: |
#72 |
Here are some pics of my glider's control frame connection for reference - standard Falcon 3 170.
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Imaposer
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: |
#73 |
| Mrsposer wrote: |
I just cannot express how happy I am! I LOVE my new glider<snip>
This past weekend was probably more fun for me than even getting my first mountain flight. I was a bundle of excitement Sat. morning. Getting to, finally, fly my new glider was awesome even if it was just on the big hill. This glider seems so much easier to launch than what I am used to. <snip> Think about buying your first glider and absolutely KNOWING you would be able to fly it. Think back to the first flight on that glider, whether it was on the training hills or off a mountain, and how much pride you felt in owning that wing. Well it was all the same for me....times a hundred!
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And boy, I wish some of you guys could have seen here Sat. She was like a kid that forgot to take her Ritalin on Christmas morning.  She was just SO happy and excited all during the morning training session and was just oozing enthusiasm the rest of the day. It was a revelation to her to be able to wedge in properly and stabilize the wing prior to launch.
| Mrsposer wrote: |
So, this past weekend, I had no intentions of doing anything except to begin the learning process on my new glider. It probably seems silly to most people when I say that I have to learn this glider. After all it's just a Falcon 145, right? But, it's not. With the smaller control frame I feel,for the first time,
I am really going to be able to do this. This sport is within my reach. Two years of hard work might actually pay off for me. <snip> This past weekend was probably more fun for me than even getting my first mountain flight. I was a bundle of excitement Sat. morning. Getting to, finally, fly my new glider was awesome even if it was just on the big hill. This glider seems so much easier to launch than what I am used to. Since I had not flown in quite a while I wanted to work on my launches. I had decided that Sat. was going to just be a fun flying day. I wanted to get to know my new baby and learn what a glider is really supposed to feel like on launch. |
But you were really flying well before too. In fact you had the best first mountain solo I've ever witnessed, and I've watched a bunch. Yeah, it took a long time to overcome some issues but it paid off too. You did it well then and now that those obstacles are gone you'll be able to do it even better and with more confidence than before. I mean how many pilots have done over three hundred successful launches, even on a T-hill? Even after a 7 month lay-off your first launch looked like you had been flying everyday. You got it down girl.
| Mrsposer wrote: |
| I do really appreciate Matt Tabor's and Steve Pearson's willingness to listen to me and find a solution that would keep me in the air. There were many times during my training that I would just get so frustrated. Of course, the instructors were the ones that had to put up with me and they really were the encouragement that I needed. Their motivation is what kept me motivated. They consoled me when I was in tears or near tears and they assured me that everything would come together. And finally it has! |
Yeah, I gotta say that Matt has assembled an awesome staff at LO. I always hate to mention names for fear of leaving anyone out but I want to recognize some of the great people that has helped Judy reach her goals so here goes, in no paticular order: Thanks to Dan, Gordon, Diana, Lauren, Christopher, Tom, Pete, Scott, Steve, Rex and all of the other staff (Jen, Jerry, Kelly just to name a few) and all our many great friends, there and here, that have shared their wisdom, offered advice, or just lent an ear.
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sam kellner
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Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 307
Location: between Zapata and BigSpring
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:01 pm Post subject: |
#74 |
Randy, Judy,
Congrats on the new glider!! Looks great on you.
You guys are so lucky to have such a super flight park just behind your house. Like you said, great staff.
I was visiting LO and flew with you on the big hill and also flew off the Mtn. the day of your first flight. I flew a bran new Falcon 3 ,shop glider, they are great fun.
Hope to fly with you again.
Sam
ushpa #16016
TexasOpen
hwy83 between Zapata and BigSpring
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David W. Johnson
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:50 am Post subject: |
#75 |
CONGRATULATIONS JUDY!!!! Hope you and that glider have alot of fun. Tell Chelsea I said hello.
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Mrsposer
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 2102
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
#76 |
| sam kellner wrote: |
Randy, Judy,
Congrats on the new glider!! Looks great on you.
You guys are so lucky to have such a super flight park just behind your house. Like you said, great staff.
I was visiting LO and flew with you on the big hill and also flew off the Mtn. the day of your first flight. I flew a bran new Falcon 3 ,shop glider, they are great fun.
Hope to fly with you again.
Sam
ushpa #16016
TexasOpen
hwy83 between Zapata and BigSpring |
Thanks Sam! Hope to see you soon.
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TnFlyer
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 82
Location: Chattanooga TN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
#77 |
Congrats msposer, I am sure you will get high soon..
Winds look backward this weekend, but i may come up anyway just to visit
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Imaposer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1041
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: |
#78 |
Hey man, we were just talking about you the other day when discussing people we hadn't seen in a while. We aren't planning on being there this weekend but we are planning for the following, weather permitting.
Hope to see you soon.
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Imaposer
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1041
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: |
#79 |
And finally the most important pic of this thread:
Anybody care to venture a guess where this one was taken?
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Skyhighwoman
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
#80 |
oh you are soooooooo teasing us.
Did you fly Judy!?!
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