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SeeMarkFly
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 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: Small claims |
 #41 |
How about if everyone filed a claim in small claims court demanding their $65 membership fee be returned?
The membership fee was originally sent in to support an organization that would support hang gliding.
They have FAILED!
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Mark Webber
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sg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: |
#42 |
Rich Hass of USHPA, to Bob K Region 3 RD - "You are not authorized to speak on behalf of USHPA for matters pertaining to Torrey Pines. Specifically, if you identify yourself in correspondence as a USHPA RD, you must state that you are speaking as an individual and you have no authorization to speak on behalf of USHPA."
Any lawers on here? Lobido? 
Does this sound legal?
Can they apply this to one elected RD and not another???
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SeeMarkFly
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
#43 |
| sg wrote: |
Any lawers on here? Lobido?
Does this sound legal?
Can they apply this to one elected RD and not another??? |
Does it matter?
Any number of times, Mark Forbes has gotten on THIS forum and told us, OVER AND OVER, that the USHPA cannot and will-not get involved with the Torrey Pines issue.
SURPRISE!
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Mark Webber
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jjcote
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: |
#44 |
I guess I'm pretty unimpressed by an RD of the USHPA taking the lea in advocating against more representation for our sport(s) in a context like this. I can understand remaining silent on the matter if one feels that the representation for hang gliding and paragliding is adequate, and I'd applaud campaigning for more representation on the council, but to stand in the way of more representation seems pretty inappropriate. As does the EC supporting this action.
Assuming that's what really happened. Brad? Going to stick up for yourself?
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bobk
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Re: USHPA - what is going on???? |
#45 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| Are we allowed to have the context? What did Bob say or write(exactly) that elicited this response? Who at USHPA said this? In what capacity? What else did they say before and after that sentence? Can we be trusted as adults to be capable of drawing our own conclusions?....Aw heck, nevermind....just light the torches and march on USHPA HQ. |
Hi Tom,
It seems that I post a lot of long messages to this forum, and I apologize for that. But since you asked, let me post the context that you requested (sorry for the length)...
| On March 12, 2009 8:19 AM, Bob Kuczewski wrote: |
Fellow Regional Directors, Mr. Montville, and others,
All: I've been reading the ongoing competition discussions, and I will be working to come up to speed on these issues. I have not been a competition pilot, and I would appreciate any brief overviews of these issues that might help me personally and that I might be able to distribute to the members of Region 3 to help me solicit their input. Thank you.
USHPA Board: I am President and Founder of the 154 member Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club. Our club has been seeking representation on the Torrey Pines Soaring Council since September of 2007. USHPA is a voting member of that Council and I will be working through the Chapter Support and Site Committees to gain USHPA's support to add the Hawks to that Council. I am hoping to bring it before the entire Board through one of those committees and I just wanted to give you a "heads up" on the issue. The simple view is that the Soaring Council contains 3 RC clubs, 2 Sailplane clubs, and only 2 clubs representing both sports of hang gliding and paragliding. When either hang gliding or paragliding is compared to the RC representation, that's an under-representation of 3 to 1, and it results largely from our combined HG/PG clubs on the national and local levels. As you can imagine, there's a lot of politics in this distribution of clubs, and I don't want to take your time in this message to go into all the gory details. But the easy question remains: Do we want more USHPA Chapters on a multi-disciplinary Council where we are under-represented or not? I am available by phone (858-204-7499) or email (bobk@bluebottle.com) to answer any questions or delve into those gory details at your convenience.
Mr. Montville: Thank you for your recent visit to San Diego to discuss the Soaring Council and other related issues. It is my understanding that you met with many of the key people during your visit (including Gary Fogel who Chairs the Council and represents one of the 3 RC clubs, Brad Hall who represents USHPA, and the current Torrey Pines Gliderport operator). I would like a brief summary of your visit and I would like to have an outline of your plan to gain greater representation for USHPA and USHPA chapters on the Soaring Council. You're welcome to send it to me personally or to include the entire Board at your discretion. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director – USHPA Region 3
President and Founder – Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club (USHPA Chapter #270) |
Mr. Montville has not yet responded to my request.
In preparation for the upcoming USHPA Board meeting I also wanted to gather some facts from the Soaring Council itself so on March 13th, I wrote to Gary Fogel who represents one of the RC clubs and is Chairman of the Council...
| On March 13, 2009 9:00 AM, Bob Kuczewski wrote: |
Gary Fogel - Chairman, Torrey Pines Soaring Council,
cc: Lisa Tate - President, USHPA
cc: Paul Montville - Executive Director, USHPA
cc: Brad Hall and Rob Sporrer - Region 3 Directors, USHPA
bcc: USHPA Board and others
Hello Gary,
USHPA will be holding its spring Board meeting from March 26-28. I will be asking for their support to add the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. I would appreciate your help with several factual matters regarding the Soaring Council to help the Committees and the Board make an informed decision.
First, could you please confirm the Council's membership history as provided below (obtained from past Soaring Council bylaws). Thanks.
Second, could you please provide your best estimate of the membership of the existing local clubs:
Gulls (RC Club)
TPSSS (RC Club)
AGCSC (Sailplane Club)
SDHGPA (HG/PG Club)
Third, could you please share your views on the relative differences between hang gliding and paragliding compared to the relative differences between scale model RCs and non-scale model RCs. These differences have been used to explain why the Soaring Council has 2 local RC clubs and only 1 local club to represent both sports of hang gliding and paragliding. It's important for the USHPA leadership to understand this perspective when considering the Hawks' request to be added to the Soaring Council.
Thanks for your time in this matter. I know you are busy, so a brief reply addressing these points would certainly be sufficient.
Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3
President and Founder - Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club
==== Soaring Council Club Membership from By-Laws ====
1978 Bylaws: (6 clubs, 2 HG)
UFO (HG)
TPHGA (HG)
Gulls (RC)
AGCSC (SP)
UCSDGC (SP? RC?)
NSS (SP? RC?)
1990 Bylaws: (6 clubs, 2 HG/PG?)
USHGA (HG PG?)
TPHGA (HG PG?)
Gulls (RC)
AGCSC (SP)
UCSDSC (SP? RC?)
AMA (RC)
2001 Bylaws: (7 clubs, 2 HG/PG)
USHGA (HG/PG)
SDHGPA (HG/PG)
Gulls (RC)
AGCSC (SP)
AMA (RC)
SSA (SP)
TPSSS (RC)
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Gary has not responded to that request. However, Matt Taber did respond with some questions about why this would be a topic for the USHPA Board. I answered Matt's questions and included the entire USHPA Board as well:
| On March 16, 2009 8:42 AM, Bob Kuczewski wrote: |
Hello Matt,
Thanks for writing.
The Soaring Council is made up of 7 member clubs from all soaring disciplines at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. The normal "pattern" of representation is one local club and one national club per flight discipline. This is exemplified by the sailplane representation which contains a representative from the Soaring Society of America (SSA, national) and one from the Associated Glider Clubs of Southern California (AGCSC, local). The RC Clubs have the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA, national) and two local clubs (the Torrey Pines Gulls and the Torrey Pines Scale Soaring Society). The original hang gliding representation followed that same pattern with USHGA (national) and the local San Diego club. When paragliding came along, it was lumped in with the hang gliding representation on the council and both were called "ultralights". This view was aided by the combined USHPA and SDHGPA national and local clubs. As a result, the combined sports of HG and PG have been under-represented on the Council and only have 2 representatives covering both sports. If our national and local HG/PG clubs were separate, we'd have at least 4 (as the sailplanes have - 2 per discipline) or 6 (as the RC clubs do with 3 for their sport). But we don't have 6 or 5 or 4 or even 3. We have 2 for both sports and this is clearly out of balance with the other clubs and with the prominence of hang gliding and paragliding operations at that site.
Now, new member clubs can be added to the Council, but that requires someone on the Council to advocate for that new club and to make the required motions and call for a vote. Any Council representative could advocate for the Hawks, but it's difficult for a sailplane club or an RC club to advocate to dilute its own voting position by adding a hang gliding club. Even so, I have gotten a statment from the AGCSC that if USHPA would support adding the Hawks, then they would support that position. The Gulls have made a similar statement saying that they would evaluate their decision if it came up for a vote, but they would not call for the vote themselves.
Since USHPA has a seat on the Council, and since the Hawks are a USHPA chapter (one of the largest as evidenced by our membership roster and the recent Regional Director election), and since our sports are severely under-represented on the Council, it seems that USHPA should advocate for adding the Hawks to that Council. That's why I will be working to gain USHPA's support.
There's a lot more "politics" behind this of course, but that's the clear justification for bringing it to the entire board. Please let me know if that answers your question. Also, please feel free to call or write any time if I can answer any more of your questions on this or any other matter (858-204-7499).
Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski |
At last night's Soaring Council meeting (March 16th, 2009) Brad Hall read the following email message from Rich Hass that I later read when I checked my email after the meeting...
| On March 16, 2009 4:21 PM, Rich Hass (as Secretary of the USHPA Executive Committee) wrote: |
Bob:
This letter is in response to your repeated requests for USHPA support in helping get you a seat on the Soaring Council. After discussing this matter, the Executive Committee (“EC”) has determined that USHPA is well represented on the Soaring Council by Brad Hall. Further, we believe you have a direct conflict-of-interest in serving on the Soaring Council. That is, your continued interference with management of this site following your suspension is straining what has been a successful relationship between the flying community and the City of San Diego.
By this letter, USHPA affirms the following:
1. USHPA will not support your request for additional representation on the Soaring Council.
2. USHPA will look to Brad Hall as its sole representative on the Soaring Council and all matters pertaining to USHPA’s relationship with the Torrey Pines site.
3. You are not authorized to speak on behalf of USHPA for matters pertaining to Torrey Pines. Specifically, if you identify yourself in correspondence as a USHPA RD, you must state that you are speaking as an individual and you have no authorization to speak on behalf of USHPA.
Bob, USHPA is absolutely committed to supporting Torrey Pines as a flying site for both hang glider and paraglider members of our association. We believe your actions have been detrimental to the best interests of the flying community at-large. USHPA reserves all rights to take whatever action it deems is in the best interest in the USHPA pilot community at-large to protect this important flying site. At present, that includes taking steps to be certain you abide by the three requirements outlined above.
Thanks,
Rich Hass
Secretary, USHPA |
I replied with the following message that has also not yet been answered:
| On March 16, 2009 9:32 PM, Bob Kuczewski wrote: |
Members of the EC (cc Brad Hall, Rob Sporrer, and others),
I believe your comments are misdirected since I have not been asking to gain a seat for myself on the Soaring Council. I have, however, been working to gain a seat for the 155 members of the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club who have joined that club to gain fair representation at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. I have also been asking to gain fair representation for the majority of the pilots in our region who elected me in a strong show of support for my efforts at the Gliderport and at other sites. So please correct your message to remove the portions that are directed at me obtaining a seat on the Soaring Council and replace them with proper references to the Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club. Thank you.
Your message also contains a factual error regarding the relationship between my suspension and my efforts to revive the Soaring Council. I began working to revive the Soaring Council in late 2006, and I first requested admission of the Hawks to the Soaring Council in September of 2007. But I was never suspended from the Gliderport until April of 2008. So it is not possible that my efforts to gain fair representation at the Gliderport were an outgrowth of that suspension. In fact, it is more likely that my suspension from the Gliderport was a result of my efforts to gain fair representation in the first place. So I reject the notion that I have any conflict of interest regarding the Soaring Council or the Gliderport as a result of my suspension. So again, please correct those comments in your message. Thanks.
As for how I may sign my communications, I would suggest that the EC review the messages sent by Brad Hall to the City of San Diego using his own title as Regional Director to try to undermine a USHPA Chapter's efforts to be represented on the City Park Advisory Board. But beyond pointing to Brad's bad behavior, I reserve the right to sign my communications in my capacity as a Regional Director, and I would appreciate being informed of any particular communications that you find are not in keeping with my elected position as such. You will find that I am generally judicious in my use of titles both as Regional Director and as President of the Hawks. I have been very specific when I've used those titles, and I welcome your directed criticism at any particular usage. Thanks again.
Finally, it is inappropriate for you to suggest that my actions have been detrimental to the flying community at large. In fact, many have commented that the atmosphere at the Gliderport is better now than it has been in many years. Few would argue that those changes were not direct or indirect results of my two year effort to reform the Gliderport. Furthermore, my actions have been taken in measured response to a situation that had been allowed to grow out of control by those who were in charge before my term as Regional Director. The lawsuit, for example, took place without my input or my knowledge. It was, in fact, the unrestrained actions of the previous Regional Director and Concessionaire that put the Gliderport in greatest jeopardy from the City. It is therefore incorrect for you to place any of that blame on me. Please correct that statement as well. Thank you.
With those thoughts in mind, I would appreciate getting a corrected version of your most recent correspondence. It is unfortunate that Brad Hall took the liberty of reading your message out loud to the entire Soaring Council earlier this evening (before I had received the message myself and before I'd had a chance to correct the record). I am hopeful that a corrected version might undo some of the damage that he caused in that reading.
Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
Regional Director - USHPA Region 3
Founder and President - Torrey Hawks Hang Gliding Club |
I am still waiting on a reply from the USHPA Executive Committee.
Again, I apologize for this "wall of text" posting. But that's the context that you requested. Now there's even more context going back further, but these are the requests that led to USHPA''s response. I hope that helps.
Thanks for asking.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders Join the Torrey Hawks Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk on Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alta8bird
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
#46 |
Just called and talked to the Executive Director of USHPA Paul Montville for a while over this issue. Basically he believes this is a local issue and that Brad Hall is already representing USHPA fairly at the Soaring Society. I think Bob K. will be able to bring this up at an upcoming USHPA meeting if he wants.
I can understand USHPA not wanting to get involved in, what seems to an outsider to the issue, an already politicized situation but I do appreciate Bob K. for trying to get more representation of our sport at a local club.
What exactly does this Soaring Society do? Do they affect hang gliding access at Torrey Pines? Are the people of that Soaring Society elected who could vote to not have Bob K. be able to be another representative for USHPA? If so, then that seems like some type of democratic process at work if the board that said no to this proposition for one year were elected as well. Just trying to think about this situation a little more before I pick up an pitch forks.
Edit:
Are the Torrey Hawks not represented by Brad at this society because the Hawks are a USHPA chapter/club and he is a USHPA RD?
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FormerFF
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
#47 |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? If so, then why is a different RD representing the USHGA on the soaring council? I understand than in the past that there was a conflict of interest as the concessionaire was also the RD, but since that no longer is the case, shouldn't that be changed? |
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Jason
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7605
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
#48 |
| FormerFF wrote: |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? If so, then why is a different RD representing the USHGA on the soaring council? I understand than in the past that there was a conflict of interest as the concessionaire was also the RD, but since that no longer is the case, shouldn't that be changed? |
Bob and Brad are Both RD's for the region and both reside in San Diego
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
#49 |
| alta8bird wrote: |
Just called and talked to the Executive Director of USHPA Paul Montville for a while over this issue. Basically he believes this is a local issue and that Brad Hall is already representing USHPA fairly at the Soaring Society. I think Bob K. will be able to bring this up at an upcoming USHPA meeting if he wants.
I can understand USHPA not wanting to get involved in, what seems to an outsider to the issue, an already politicized situation but I do appreciate Bob K. for trying to get more representation of our sport at a local club. |
Torrey Pines is in Region 3. Bob K. is the region 3 RD.
USHPA cannot claim they are NOT involved after making statements like this and support Brad Hall in preventing from adding more HG representation to the Torrey Pines Soaring Council. This stinks
"You are not authorized to speak on behalf of USHPA for matters pertaining to Torrey Pines. Specifically, if you identify yourself in correspondence as a USHPA RD, you must state that you are speaking as an individual and you have no authorization to speak on behalf of USHPA"
Excuse me USHPA, but we elected Bob to do just that. *ELECTED*, you know what that means right?
If USHPA would like to retract all such statements, they could back to pretending this is a local issue and that they are not involved 
_________________
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Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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SeeMarkFly
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
#50 |
| FormerFF wrote: |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? |
AND with the most votes of ANY RD EVER.
But the EC has risen to the occasion. They do not think he SHOULD represent the region that he was elected to....for some funny reason.
I wonder if they would be kind enough to tell us what that reason is.
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Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
#51 |
| alta8bird wrote: |
Edit:
Are the Torrey Hawks not represented by Brad at this society because the Hawks are a USHPA chapter/club and he is a USHPA RD? |
Brad has actively worked against the Torrey Hawks hang gliding club from getting representation on the Torrey Soaring Council as a USHPA RD.
So no, he does NOT represent the Hawks, exactly the opposite.
But he IS a member of the other smaller USHPA/Chapter/Club the SDHGPA.
Yes, the Hawks are a USHPA/Chapter/Club
Apparently, a 2nd class citizen club of HG pilots in Brad and USHPA's eyes now.
Even though they are the biggest HG club in the area
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
Last edited by sg on Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alta8bird
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Posts: 283
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
#52 |
| Jason wrote: |
| FormerFF wrote: |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? If so, then why is a different RD representing the USHGA on the soaring council? I understand than in the past that there was a conflict of interest as the concessionaire was also the RD, but since that no longer is the case, shouldn't that be changed? |
Bob and Brad are Both RD's for the region and both reside in San Diego |
SG isn't Brad elected for that Region too?
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sg
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
#53 |
| alta8bird wrote: |
| Jason wrote: |
| FormerFF wrote: |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? If so, then why is a different RD representing the USHGA on the soaring council? I understand than in the past that there was a conflict of interest as the concessionaire was also the RD, but since that no longer is the case, shouldn't that be changed? |
Bob and Brad are Both RD's for the region and both reside in San Diego |
SG isn't Brad elected for that Region too? |
Yes. Bob was elected after Brad.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Jason
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Posts: 7605
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
#54 |
| alta8bird wrote: |
| Jason wrote: |
| FormerFF wrote: |
| Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Bob the RD for the area that includes Torrey? If so, then why is a different RD representing the USHGA on the soaring council? I understand than in the past that there was a conflict of interest as the concessionaire was also the RD, but since that no longer is the case, shouldn't that be changed? |
Bob and Brad are Both RD's for the region and both reside in San Diego |
SG isn't Brad elected for that Region too? |
for the time being, it he was up this election cycle he would have been ousted just like jebb.
USHPA has no right to tell my representative he can't represent me  
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bobk
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
#55 |
| alta8bird wrote: |
Just called and talked to the Executive Director of USHPA Paul Montville for a while over this issue. Basically he believes this is a local issue and that Brad Hall is already representing USHPA fairly at the Soaring Society. I think Bob K. will be able to bring this up at an upcoming USHPA meeting if he wants.
I can understand USHPA not wanting to get involved in, what seems to an outsider to the issue, an already politicized situation but I do appreciate Bob K. for trying to get more representation of our sport at a local club.
What exactly does this Soaring Society do? Do they affect hang gliding access at Torrey Pines? Are the people of that Soaring Society elected who could vote to not have Bob K. be able to be another representative for USHPA? If so, then that seems like some type of democratic process at work if the board that said no to this proposition for one year were elected as well. Just trying to think about this situation a little more before I pick up an pitch forks. |
There are two local RC Clubs on the Soaring Council (Gary Fogel, the Council's chairman, represents one of them). But there's only one local club representing both sports of hang gliding and paragliding. The Torrey Hawks have 155 members who would like USHPA's support and USHPA's vote to be represented on the Council. USHPA's default position in this matter should be to support any local clubs who would like to increase our representation on any Board or Council where we're under-represented. Period. There may be reasons not to support a local club, but that should require some explanation other than simply saying that Brad represents USHPA on the Soaring Council. In fact, if you read the USHPA EC statement, it focusses on Brad representing USHPA, but it does not address the fact that our local club would also like representation of its own as the SDHGPA has.
Here's what I suspect is happening. Brad Hall has been telling the EC his version of this issue. And to be fair, Brad has a long and distinguished history at USHPA and a personal relationship with many EC members. I might expect them to take his word over mine as a first position. But I think it's time that they really look into this issue and ask what kind of precedent they are establishing by favoring one local club (or faction) over another. I'm not asking for Brad Hall or the SDHGPA to lose their representation on the Council. I'm just asking for another club to be added. The opposition to this deserves some explanation.
As for what the Soaring Council actually does, that's up to the Council itself. It is written into the Gliderport lease as an advisory body representing all user groups at the Gliderport (right there it seems that the Hawks 155 members should be represented). My main goal for the Soaring Council would be to review incident reports and to make suggestions on how all user groups can fairly share the airspace at the Gliderport. The current members of the Council have resisted that view, and that's another argument for adding a new perspective. I don't think the addition of one club is going to change the entire Council, but it will at least provide a voice for the many pilots who currently have none.
Thanks for writing.
Bob Kuczewski
Region 3 Director (oops, can I say that in this context?)
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders Join the Torrey Hawks Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk on Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alta8bird
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SeeMarkFly
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
#57 |
| Jason wrote: |
| USHPA has no right to tell my representative he can't represent me |
Just wait till they turn it into a "for profit" corporation (per Mr. Forbes).
My "gut feeling" is that they don't really care for all these "whining weekend warriors" that they have to "put up with".
They would like the option of charging you so much money, that you just "go away".
Then back to "business as usual".
What business?
The business of promoting hang gliding....or the business of making money?
I stopped "picking up the soap" a long time ago.
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
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Glide Junkie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 106
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
#58 |
| Jason wrote: |
regarding point 2
who will they look to when we vote Brad out?  |
There is a point here. Brad is up for reelection. Maybe us Region 3 pilots should be able to elect which RD we want on the council.
Let's not forget Brad is a hang glider pilot, even though he may not be the best representative. Who has lobbied him for our interests on the council (other than Bob)? Anyone got any citations? Have we as a community asked him to bring certain items to the attention of the council? There are ways to navigate this one, with Bob silenced on this issue. This just cannot be a Bob issue, if we are going to get chapped about this, then build the request from multiple individuals.
Build a case, then when the representative fails to represent the request of the body it serves, this will show the constituents the leader is not representing.
So who wants to pile the request on Brads door, document it and see if he can pony up? Hell who knows the issues not getting addressed? Let's start a rational list.
Lets start a list of requests we want Bard to address with the council on our behalf and let him sink or swim. The more individuals making these request the stronger the validity. We should be able to have Meeting Minutes from the SC meetings, Bob are you still recording? This will let us know if Brad is holding his end of the stick.
Who has specific requests (other than let Bob join the council) ?
When one door closes, open another.
Heather |
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joefaust
2 thumbs up
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 77
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
#59 |
Couple of things:
Bob K. was 50% the reason for my renewing into USHPA; he indicated the qualities that got me positively excited about the future of the org part of hang gliding in Region 3. The other 50% came from the positive service life of Joe Greblo. That reprimand from the Hass has some serious crosses in it that can spell the end of USHPA, if not corrected well by BoDs, EC soon.
Where is that petition for impeachment for Hall; I seem not to have a link; will there be one for Hass?
Up for sale is the org name and domain of HGAusa.com for the $15 that I paid for it. http://HGAusa.com/ [UPDATE: Someone just bought from me and gave it back for me to continue it; thanks.]
Joe Faust
USHGA #5, USHPA #5, and member of Torrey Hawks
So far, re: Brad, I only asked a rhetoric question following someone at HangGliding.org posting something about an impeachment item that I have yet to find; so I asked: "Where is it...? As yet, I have not enough to know whether or not Brad has represented the members in balance yet on particular points, as Heather leads us in that discussion. I wish Brad the best. And I am remaining open to learn more.
Brad's long-enduring blessing of hang gliding in flying and service are a treasure in my annals. Controversy can have its positive fruits. The Hass letter will bring some good fruit. I will be studying the matter and see if I might help in some way. I like Heather's suggestions, as she works within the system.
What I do have solidly is a steady respect for Bob K.'s communications that have come across my desk. I have no presumption over what has yet to come through my view; and I have not yet anything close to any full file on the Torrey site needs. To the moment, I would want the quality of energy that Bob K. radiates.
The Hass letter seems full of nuances that may hurt our USHPA, regardless of the Torrey matter per se.
My postings at SHGA and in Lift and at HangGliding.org forum are to help bring discussion over the letter to Bob K. from Hass. The final balancing act in the Soaring Council for Torrey is another matter.
http://tinyurl.com/BradHall888Lift
http://tinyurl.com/TorreyHawks8888Lift
The tensions at Torrey might happen elsewhere; I hope that Hass does not send out any more such radical cutting notes to other RDs.
http://www.hgausa.com/members001/livinglegendlifters.html
holds Brad and Bob. Open for other nominations.
Last edited by joefaust on Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:34 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: |
#60 |
| Glide Junkie wrote: |
Who has specific requests (other than let Bob join the council) ?
Heather |
I will be the first to throw a stone.
I have NUMEROUS requests to RD's to look into the "non standard" ridge rules at Torrey.
A shame that it took an accident to change things.
Take a look at this...
<snip>
Re: Torrey Pines ConcessionSaturday, March 29, 2008 10:22 PM
From: "USHPA SUCKS" <wild_high_mark@yahoo.com>Add sender to Contacts
To: "Mark G. Forbes" <mgforbes@mindspring.com>
Boy, I really have a problem with that attitude.
"We all know it's wrong, but it's working so we're
going to keep doing it wrong".
It kind of reflects on the current problems we have in
this country.
There is absolutly no reason for the H-4 rating at
Torrey Pines.
Ask ANY of the Hang glining instructors.
I do NOT believe that Bob's "Soaring Council" can have
ANY effect over the concession holder (the Jeb's).
I got a good laugh at Torrey's "solution" to the
problem "You can call us up, and we will apologize".
The site itself (a City of San Diego park) would be
open to anybody that wanted to use it, NOT nobody
would be able to use it.
It is possible that it COULD run much more efficiently
with some kind of "traffic cop" to coordinate things,
but the controlling person (to be fair) should not
have an economic involvement in free flight (a park
ranger position, NOT a paragliding instructor
position).
Let the Jeb's have the hot dog stand, the bigger the
crown, the more profit to be made.
Design the solution properly.
I'm not an evil person, just an idealist.
On a more sour note, I got this back from a southern
California pilot;
>Last I heard, Tad had quit flying because in his own
words he, 'just >can't stop doing stupid stuff'.
NOW I'm not a well educated man, but shouldn't an
instructor be able to stay one (or two) steps ahead of
his student?
Shouldn't an instructor be able to fly better than ANY
of his students?
I did notice that most of Tad's accidents were in a
hang glider, and I did TRY to think of why he would do
that on purpose, but It's really hard to hurt yourself
on purpose.
So that theory is out and I have to defalt to "he's
just a bad pilot".
BUT what is a bad pilot doing teaching people to fly?
He is supposed to be teaching risk management, does he
not know the subject matter?
I have personally seen improperly trained paraglider
pilots (from Torrey Pines) fly "Blossom Valley" with
mixed results from the land owners.
I have personally seen Tad (in a hang glider) turn to
avoid MY Ford van parked on launch at Horse (in the
parking area).
We might have a "batch" of improperly trained pilot
loose in the San Diego area.
I think someone should look into this and I don't
think it should be me.
Does the USHPA do any spot checking?
Does the USHPA do any recalls?
A little effort here might save a lot of work later.
p.s. I actually like your "local pilot info" map
thing.
WHAT the USHPA is actually helping pilots.
Hope it was something I said.
--- "Mark G. Forbes" <mgforbes@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Tandems pay the bills, at every major school I know of. Most of those tandems never turn into solo students, but without those intro flights and their revenue, the schools would not be able to survive. Find an economic model that lets a purely teaching-only school make a living, and you'd revolutionize the sport. So far, nobody's been able to come up with one.
>
> MGF
>
<snip>
As you can see, this is an ongoing conversation that I have been having with Mr. Forbes for some time.
Would you like some more?
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
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