[Jake 526]

[ian9toes]

I went up to launch today, umed and arrrd and ended up not flying. Probably would've if somone else did. Anyway there were some learning PG guys there and their instructor. It was way too strong for them, so they weren't flying. One of the guys had just started learning and asked me about HG I was diplomatic but I called a spade a spade. Then I ended up saying ask this guy (someone had just told me he's biwingal) he'll give you an unbiased opinion. Boy was I wrong, he had just started paragliding, said he'd flown hang gliders for 30 years, yet he had only bad things to say about HG. Completely glossed over PG dangers and just focused on landing a HG in nill wind, and relived his ordeals (but as we all know, nill wind landings aren't a big deal anyway, especially in a glider with the performance of a PG). Atleast he did concede the window for flying HG is much greater than PG. He started talking about the convenience of setting up PG. I said I don't really buy into that argument so much as I can set up my HG in 20 minutes, and PG may take 5 minutes but we both have radios and varios and batteries and flying clothes to deal with and water bottles and so forth, so that all takes time but the only difference is the 15 minutes. He went on to say it takes him an hour to set up his HG and he can be airborne in a few minutes with his PG, I couldn't believe how biased he was, as you can tell I was a bit annoyed with him in the end, in fact the other guy just walked off in mid sentence and left him to me.

So what do you guys think the set up pack up time difference is. I admit PG's are way more convenient in terms of transport and being able to go overseas with a PG, but I don't think the set up time is 1 hr versus 3 minutes like this guy tried to make out.

Ps I think the guy who asked me about HG, I think by the tone when he first asked me, he was wondering if he'd chosen the right sport. I guess the more he hangs around the flying community the closer he'll be to knowing if he's decison was the right one for him.

[CHassan]

An Atos takes an hour if your talking 1/2 the time. A PG may take 10 minutes if you talk and preflight it really good. but then you have to stand on launch for 20 minutes and 3 failed inflations minimum!

[relate2]

For me when I first looked at HG v PG, I knew within 10 minutes of watching the PG floating by that I would be bored within the first hour of flying one. So pack up time, transport etc was not a consideration.

Something else that I have only found out recently that at Stanwell at least, for every 10 days the tandems get to fly, the PG's get maybe one or two days. So with their much narrower wind range they also do not get as many hours as HG's.

Basically though, I look at it that we are all pilots and treat them as such, if they start raving as your bloke was doing I would also just walk away, life's too short.

[ian9toes]

actually if you consider the time they spend driving to a site and standing around scrutinising the wind strength and not flying when the HG's are, then they could actually waste more time doing that then the little extra we spend on setup.

[CHassan]

[HGXC]

Where did you get that photo?

Dennis

[ian9toes]

[ian9toes]

The above mentioned PG lover, also stated that in Europe PGs outsell HGs 400:1, don't really know where he was trying to go with that. I'm sure golf clubs outsell HG's 10 000:1. That still won't get me playing golf though
Anyone know the stats, is that about right? On the PG vs HG of course I just made the golf one up, you know they say 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot

[CHassan]

That photo really had nothing to do with PG, just being a smart arse!

PG outsell HG for several reasons. 1) they only last a few years before they need to be replaced. They are made from thinner material so they wear out faster, get damaged easier, and are more disposable than an HG. 2) There are more new PG pilots coming into the sport. 3) PG are still in the evolution stage, and there are more PG manufactures. Just like the HG in the early days, lots of Mfg, lost of R&D, everyone wanting to upgrade to the latest designs etc...etc...

(All of this coming from a HG pilot with little exposure to PG, so I may be WAY off base.)

[SeeMarkFly]

[bluefork]

I'm a PG pilot who is getting into HG. There are several reasons why I chose to do PG first over HG. Some of the biggest factors was the ease of transport(no rack, easy to throw in and go), storage(fits into my closet, apartment living), setup and break down time(10mintues), I'm able to selflaunch, and the ability to sidehill land(if I'm sinking out) and land right were I took off.
In my area we have just about every kind of flying site. Everything from a rolling grass hill launch to a straight cliff. The LZs are the same from a nice grass open area to a small boulder patch. Another factor is the amount of wind we get regulary. With all these conditions I have noticed in my area that PGs have the advantage.
But if you drive 3 hrs from here to King mountain the hanglider is the perferred antigravity machine. The air there is big and can get scary quick. When I go over there I fly in the morning and the glassoff in my paraglider. The afternoon is generally so strong that the hanglider is in its element.
Another factor I have noticed in my area is that my falcon 2 flies in about the same conditons as my PG. But most Hg pilots fly a beginner HG for only a short time then move up to a higher performance rig. This seriously limits there flying days in my area. One of my HG pilots friends only flew 7 times last year locally. He has a higher performance HG. I flew my PG 3 days a week last year. In my area the HG guys performance themselves out of the flying envelope locally.
Last year when I was at King I was on the ground waiting for the conditions to calm down so I could fly. On that day the HG guys had 3+ hr flights and got to over 11,000. That is when I decided to take up HG. One of my good HG friend said it was always wise to have a broad quiver of flying machines. He flies a atos and has a falcon so he can fly the light days. I have a PG and I'm getting into HG so I can fly the strong days.
I would recommend looking at your local conditions really closely and take that into consideration before deciding on what to fly. It is easier to learn and stay motivated on a flying machine that you can fly on a regular bases in your local area as a beginner. Chaseing the wind and kicking rocks is really hard on new pilots mentally.
Then decide to just take up both disciplines later down the road. You can never get enough flying.

[Jason]

[sg]

Thats a good point about HG pilots moving up to high performance wings and flying less because they dont match the conditions.

But I suspect there is another reason as well.

When I was a young pilot flying my falcon class wing, id kill for a sled ride.
Later..... I only would fly if it was soarable.
Later..... moved up to a Topless.
Suddenly.. it was all super exciting again and a BLAST.

When the super light floaty days came by.... even though I still had my floaty wing, I just had no interest. I had already tasted speed and performance.

So it wasnt so much that I filtered myself out by going high performance, its just that once I tasted the sweet nectar of blasting around at high speeds, I didnt want to look back.

The same happens with XC pilots. Once they get hooked on going XC, they simply dont care to go fish bowl flying at a local site. If the conditions arent good for XC, they just dont bother.

[Erik Boehm]

[Wingspan34]

From observation and experience this is what I see.

You can pull a PG out of it's bag and lay it out in very little time. But I always see PG pilots inspecting all those strings (like 50 of them) for tangles and twists, not to mention pulling the little sticks and twigs out of them (which lie on the ground all over the place in these parts). Then they really do watch the wind more than most HG pilots. Then, once they think it's good they kite their wing (harness on or off) for 10 - 20 minutes. Then they get in their harness and typically make 3 - 6 launch attempts before they are successful.

I can relax and set my glider up in 30 minutes or speed it up and be ready in 15-20 minutes. I spend no time pulling twiggs out of my rigging. I don't spend any time kiting, and when I decide to launch, the only delay is waiting (sometimes 5 minutes) for a good balanced in cycle.

I would almost bet that, given that both the HG pilot and the PG pilot do all that is necessary to feel comfortable with their wing (set up and preflight), then an average hang glider pilot could equal or beat the average PG pilot into the air. But that's given my local situation.

At a barren desert site like Point of the Mountain where there are no sticks or twigs, or slot launches and steady consistent winds rather than switchy, then the PG could be in the air quicker - if it's not blowing too strong.

Forgetting all else, I get in the air quicker and more securely when I choose to begin my launch run. PG pilots (from my observation) ALWAYS look closely at and scrutinize their wings (way up over their heads) before finally committing to their actual launch run.

I launch my hang glider with confidence, while (local) PG pilots seem to launch their wings with perpetual uncertainty. What a way to begin a nice day's flight, . . . with doubt.

[ian9toes]

[bluefork]

This thread was started from a person who was wanting info on what type of flying sport to get into. I'm just trying to give a new pilots perspective. I know why pilots upgrade there gear. I fly a DHV 2 PG. (it is not a beginner wing.) Same with the seasoned pilot who owns a sport or atos ect. To bring that argument has no merit. A person who stays in the sport will decide what he or she wants out of there flying and buy the appropriate gear for that. A beginner just wants to fly and do a lot of it.

The set up time for each sport can be long or short per the pilot. That isn't really a argument. A person and there flying machine is a very personal thing. It is your butt in the air. Your own mindset of safety is your own thing. I have PG friend who always fold there wing and detach there hardness. It takes them forever to fly or to put there gear away. Same can be said with the hangliders. I take a lot longer looking over my hanglider then my paraglider. But I suspect it is due to the unfamiliarity I have with my hanglider.

Launching is also a very personal thing as well. I have seen both sport take forever or be very fast. It has to do with the pilot comfort factor again. I know PG pilots who can barelly kite there wing. They scare the hell out of me to watch them launch. They need to work on there skills. (I take my paraglider and hanglider out when the wind is blowing and just fly it around on flat ground.)

Both sports can be dangerous. As a pilot you need to know your skill level. In both sports the best thing that can happen to you when you crash hard is you die. The worst is you are paralized from the neck down and you are now dependent on somebody else for the rest of your life.

Were I live there are no active instructors for eighter sport. That sometimes has something to do with which sport you get into. Back east were my brotherinlaw lives hangliders are way more popular. Here is idaho paragliders are flown more. But that I think is a problem with the over all sport of free flight.

Fly Safe!