[FMAN]

thanks for the info!

Sangoma

[blindrodie]

FMAN what is your AVATAR? Looks like a bad shot of teeth...

[FMAN]

a 5 year old girl taking pictures of a family of toy lemurs without a flash.


kinda looks lifty

[jimrooney]

I'll bring you back to what I was talking about....

[Paul H]

Where is your data that supports "HGs don't because it breaks s***"? I have heard of HGs deploying after a tumble even though the glider looked ok, they just didn't want to take any chances. They came down without damage.
It looks like your friends have poor skill levels which has nothing to do with them flying HGs. It's just as likely they would have done as poorly flying PGs. Trees and other obstacles don't make exceptions for what kind of wing you are flying when you run into them. Blown launches and landings have the same cause for both types of wings. Poor skills and/or judgement.
We had two PG pilots break their backs here last year, but no HG pilots broke their backs. Does that mean only PG pilots will seriously injure themselves?
We have had three PG pilots die here in the past few years, but no HG pilots. We could twist that around and say that only PG pilots die flying.
You can manipulate the numbers to support any view. Remember the three types of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
The whole fallacy of PGs being so ready to throw their chutes and not think anything of it is that it's a piece of emergency equipment. To treat it as just part of a normal event like I have heard some PG pilots do, is stupid. Treating it casually is just an invitation to repeating the poor judgement that got the pilot into that situation in the first place.

[Wingspan34]

tc75 (Tony),

Are you still reading/checking out this thread? Once we all got going you haven't responded even once. That's too bad. Then again it may be a bit intimidating to step into the fray.

There are a couple things I'd like to mention:

PGs have flourished mainly due to their "instant gratification" factors. #1) Their ease of transport is pretty clear. #2) Here is an aircraft that, at the very beginning, is fairly easy to learn to fly.

So, compared to hang gliders PGs are easier to move around and (initially) easier to get flying. This, compared to hang gliders, is very attractive. Those who make a living (i.e. profit from) dealing PG equipment are VERY conscious of this. They take advantage of these, initial and relatively superficial, attractive qualities. And As Jim Rooney mentioned, it's even more attractive to TEACH PGing than hang gliding.

But here's where the thinking man has an advantage. Hang gliding may have disadvantages compared to PGing, but IN THE LONG RUN, hang gliders are safer, better performing aircraft.

So, wouldn't an intelligent person who has any idea how dynamic and unforgiving the air can be, choose the wing that is, by far, most likely to be the safer, better performing flying device? Sure! That is, if s/he has any idea of what's really critical to a good, sound, and safe aircraft.

Unfortunately, you're average person looking into the world on minimal equipment soaring (PGs or HGs) often has no real concept of how dangerous aviation is or can be. They have NO IDEA what the air can do. The air can slam jet airliners into the ground - with hardly any notice. Do people think about this when they consider flying a "wing" that has no internal structure? Do they think about the fact that this easily collapsible and transportable canopy can also easily collapse IN THE AIR?

This is where newbie ignorance is the friend of PG dealers. There are LOTS of newbies who have no clue about any of the disadvantages of paragliders. All they know is what they are told - by the guy(s) selling the product (those over abundant - cause it's easier and more profitable to teach and sell - PGing schools/dealers).

I'd love it if everyone considering taking up minimal soaring (PG or HG) was required to learn the UNBIASED (!!!) truth about each form of free flight. The advantages AND disadvantages of both. That would include accident stats (for both sports!) like those SG has compiled.

If this actually occurred, I think hang gliding would still be (slowly?) growing while PGing (slowly?) fell into obvious second place.

I'd also bet that a lot of people - after learning some simple truths about the general nature of aviation - would simply decide to not participate in either sport. Those people would be better off, I'm sure.

[nowoman]

So, after all these posts, as you can all see, I am correct, PG's are better.

ian9toes writes

[jimrooney]

Yeah Paul... that's exactly what I'm saying. Although since things have (as they always do) degraded into arguments, it might not sound that way.

The most dangerous thing in the whole mix is the pilot. All this malarkey about HG being safer or PG being safer is bunk. HGs fly through rougher air better than PG. But PGs are far easier to fly and land than HG (which is why students wind up doing high flights faster).

As with any aviation, it comes back to the pilot making good judgments. When to fly and more importantly when not to fly. There's plenty of big air out there that HG pilots have learned not to fly in. And learned the hard way. Same with sailplanes, same with anything.

SG, I am seriously interested about this glider giftwrapping you brought up. I'm interested because that s*** doesn't happen. You've left out some very important details. PGs collapse, get stuck tips and all kinds of fun stuff... but giftwrapping doesn't happen unless you're flying extremely big air (stuff I don't even fly HG in), doing acro, or freaking out (same as flaring a HG at altitude). So I do actually want to know more.

Jim

[sg]

I heard the guy was flying in air he shouldnt have been in. But thats what they always say when a PG folds up.

As for the stats being old.... 2005 ushpa stats are old???

Sorry Jim... the stas are as current as I could get from uspha, they are not old (2005 being the latest), and they tell the PG story quite clearly. PG's #1 problem is holding together in thermal turbulence. It is statistically their #1 accident causing issue, and no amount of spin or excuses is going to change that. Only 3% of those in air issues were from acro.

[tc75]

Guys, guys, guys,

Yes I'm still here (but have been keeping an eye on this thread on my Blackberry, cr@py busy job, hence the desire to get back in the air). This is not how I intended my thread to turn out, but I suppose it's to be expected.

As someone already mentioned the smart thing to do would be to post the same question on a PG forum. I did intend and probably still will on paraglidingforum.com, but to be honest the outcome will no doubt be the same.

I'll be honest my preference is HG, but there is something about PG that I fancy. If HG is the most difficult to learn I'll probably give that a go first and see how I go. After all learning is all part of the fun.

As you have all said (in your own way at least) It really doesn't matter what you are flying be it a HG, PG or B747 do it in conditions that are beyond you or your aircraft and it is going to hurt...

As I said before I do have some limited gliding experience (70 hours) and I even managed 7,000 feet in thermals once in the UK (you don't get many days like that in the UK!) and there is no better feeling than that. It's thermals that I'm after, so HG it will be. For now. WIll update you all once the first lesson is booked.

Tony

(Written on my BB so apologies if the spelling is in urdu!)

[Paul H]

There is no doubt that it is easier to initially get into the air with a PG, but I don't believe they are easier to fly once you are in the air. My HG's have always been very easy to fly, just light control inputs and they respond instantly. The rigids are supposed to be even easier, but someone else would have to offer a better informed opinion on that.
The main problem that I have seen with PG's is the fact of so many of them being in the air and flying around with other traffic before they have had any real instruction about ridge soaring and thermalling rules. That is the fault of those instructors that are in the sport to make a quick buck. I have seen far too many PG's in the air after only a couple of days of instruction and then left on their own. Kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of a flying day when you are constantly having to make evasive moves to avoid midairs with someone who clearly has no clue about what they are doing. There's more to flying one of those things than just sitting there pulling on the brakes.

[SeeMarkFly]

[Wingspan34]

Tony, it's nice to hear back from you! Good Luck with all your hang gliding endeavors.

BTW - If you put HG and PG into a thread title, then what you've seen here nearly ALWAYS happens. No need to feel responsible.

[FormerFF]

[nowoman]

Tc75, just learn how to PG. Don't bother messing around with carting around a HG evey time you want to go flying.

PG is also 10000000% easier to travel with. (Statistics supplied by USHPA 2009, page 7, paragraph 8, so I must be right.)

[Wingspan34]

Read what nowoman says. . . and then do the opposite.

[jimrooney]

Coming off sailplanes, I'd say going with HG is a good idea.

HG's going to feel slow enough, PG will feel like you're standing still. I'd recommend taking a PG lesson at some point just to know for yourself.

An other avenue out there is footlaunched ultralight sailplanes. The millennium is fun as hell to fly. The Swift dominates the scene at the moment, but I think there's other contenders out there. A used millennium won't set you back too much and you can get a new sail made for it. My friend did this and is loving life.

My advice to stick and rudder guys when learning HG... think of youself as the stick... to go fast, push yourself forward. To go slow, push yourself back. Just a little mental trick ;)

Enjoy
Jim

[ian9toes]

[sg]

nowoman, the joke is old already.

If its actually not a joke, then this is the wrong website for you.
This site exists to promote HG, and for the HG community.
If you are only interested in PG, then go to the sister site: www.paraglidingforums.com

[nowoman]

I'm actually not anti-HG at all.

Just wanted to make people realise that HG & PG are really as good as each other. And that whatever it is that you fly (HG or PG), you are going to pretty much say that the one you fly, is the better wing to fly.

It's just funny seeing everyone’s reasons why one is BETTER than the other. As, in the big picture there is no "Better". If you are out flying, you are living life, having fun, not caring about who thinks "this" or "that" about what you fly.

Peace Bro's