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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
 #41 |
Wingspan,
Have you ever actually MET David Jebb? Just as BobK said (quoted below), there is a lot of "information" out there that has been stretched and bent to the point of barely representing reality any more.
I will go on record as someone who knows David Jebb, and doesn't believe him to be an EVIL man. He is running a PG business, and as such has no incentive to promote hang gliding. If this makes him evil, there are a lot of hang gliding shops (myself included) that are just as wrong, as I have no incentive to steering people towards paragliding.
I think this Torrey thing has really gotten blown out of proportion via the internet, and especially this site. A fellow Ellenville pilot just went on a HG-road-trip, and Torrey was one of his stops. He is a H4, and as such was able to show up and fly without being hassled in the least. He actually made a point of saying he doesn't know what all the fuss is about.
I'm not saying that everything is perfect at Torrey, I'm just saying it has it's local politics and drama just like everywhere else, but for some reason Torrey's 'issues' have become a major focal point online. I could easily start just as many threads about the politics going on in Ellenville, or here at the Point, or probably any consistant, high profile site anywhere in the country...
| bobk wrote: |
| There are a lot of people who support David Jebb, and they'll take pot shots at our club any way they can. I'm not saying you're one of them, but you may have gotten your information from someone who wants to undermine our club behind the scenes. So Ryan, can you please tell us where you got the information that the Torrey Hawks is not a "local" club? |
No one really TOLD me the hawks aren't a local club, I just got that impression because I have talked to a lot of people that don't live anywhere near Torrey, that have never flown Torrey, and they were trying to get me to join the hawks. The fact is, I might make it to Torrey once or twice a year, and I don't think that makes me a 'local' pilot, so I'm content to show up and pay my day fee and fly. I see no effort to prevent me from doing this, and I don't think Jebb has any intention of changing the 'status quo' so I can't do this. It is my solid belief that any H4 can do this, that's the way it is, the way it has always been, and again, I don't see this changing.
The only reason I brought up the 'local club' issue is because I have heard it brought up before (see Brad Hall's letters to Bob), but I haven't heard or seen a response to it.
To be blunt, I haven't joined the Hawks because I don't know what BobK is doing as the representative of the Hawks, and I don't want my name attached to something I have no idea what is going on.
Bob, you say you represent 130 (ish) people who want to preserve hang gliding at Torrey... but do you have any reason to believe that H4's will no longer be allowed to fly there? I don't see the ability to hang glide at Torrey as endangered, do you?
And if this is because Jebb allows students to fly there, then you have to admit that the Torrey Hawks isn't "promoting hang gliding at Torrey", unless you mean opening it to hang gliding INSTRUCTION? But if that's not the case, then you're just trying to put a business owner out of business and make it so he can no longer afford to run Torrey, in which case someone else will... and they might teach hang gliding, in which case we'll be better off (but the PGers will be worse off), or they may teach PG (in which case we'll be in the same situation), or they may teach both, which is an ideal situation, but there's only a handful of instructors out there that are teaching both and are not biased one way or the other...
Sorry for the long post, but I think this whole Torrey thing is getting old...
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Ryan Voight
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#42 |
| Holger wrote: |
. . . That there are PG schools that discourage people from going HG is sad, but doesn't change my attitude towards PG pilots. Here is the money and business side - and there is the shared enthusiasm for silent flight.
Holger |
This would be all well and good if those anti PG schools were simply and HONESTLY "discouraging" (?) people from hang gliding. However, the effect is, to often and actively, PREVENT people from hang gliding - by lying to and deceiving them.
And once involved in the sport of PG flying, what kind of attitude do these new PG pilots gain from the staff of these anti-hang gliding shops, regarding HG pilots?
I'm sorry, but I can't believe that they are taught to have respect for those in the hang gliding community. Having no (honest or informed) view, or perhaps one of pity, sympathy, or disrespect(?) (for those of us in the more dangerous and/or dieing sport of hang gliding) is much more likely.
This leaves those who are taught to fly PGs by honest, fair minded shops and those who have ended up flying both wings - and therefore have a broader perspective - to create this "shared enthusiasm for silent flight" that you speak of.
On a personal, one to one level, "shared enthusiasm" is a wonderful thing. I (a supposed PG hater) share it with my PG flying friends all the time. But as Mark said, a few bad apples can ruin the whole barrel. And it seems some of the pro PG/anti HG bad apples are sometimes right on the top and hold the position of USHPA Regional Director.
In other words, the question that I think was asked or implied by the lead in post for this thread was: What are our rights and privileges when it comes to flying sites.
The question was not "Can HG pilots and PG pilots have shared enthusiasm for silent flight. Of course it may be much more possible to share enthusiasm when both types of wing are allowed to fairly share (have equal rights to fly at) the same, equally suitable, flying site.
And I'm afraid that what you really need to do, Holger, is go and give a good talk to David Jebb, and his ilk, about this "shared enthusiasm". In doing so please explain how fair administration of flying rights and privileges can go a long way to enhance that ideal. Let us know how it goes.
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WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
#43 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
Wingspan,
Have you ever actually MET David Jebb? Just as BobK said (quoted below), there is a lot of "information" out there that has been stretched and bent to the point of barely representing reality any more.
I will go on record as someone who knows David Jebb, and doesn't believe him to be an EVIL man. He is running a PG business, and as such has no incentive to promote hang gliding. If this makes him evil, there are a lot of hang gliding shops (myself included) that are just as wrong, as I have no incentive to steering people towards paragliding. |
Your comment implies that I have called David Jebb "evil". I have not. I'm glad you haven't said I "hate" him. But what I don't get is how people come into a debate and decide to spin it into an evil/hate fest? That's destructive to the honest purpose of debate.
No, I haven't met David Jebb. But I've (supposedly) read his words via bradgeary's posted letter of his, and know how he runs Torrey Pines. I've limited my words to the perspective I've formed from those and other reasonable sources. I seriously doubt I'd call him evil, even if I had met him.
In fact, in another post to this very thread I presumed to describe him merely as a self serving(?) businessman. But a businessman can certainly be greedy, and geed, they say, is the root of all evil. Hmmmmm. Should such an ancient saying be believed?
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| . . . A fellow Ellenville pilot just went on a HG-road-trip, and Torrey was one of his stops. He is a H4, and as such was able to show up and fly without being hassled in the least. He actually made a point of saying he doesn't know what all the fuss is about. |
That's because he's not a local hang glider pilot who, having been granted a USHPA Novice or Intermediate rating (with appropriate skills), still can't fly at Torrey Pines.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| bobk wrote: |
| There are a lot of people who support David Jebb, and they'll take pot shots at our club any way they can. I'm not saying you're one of them, but you may have gotten your information from someone who wants to undermine our club behind the scenes. So Ryan, can you please tell us where you got the information that the Torrey Hawks is not a "local" club? |
No one really TOLD me the hawks aren't a local club, I just got that impression because I have talked to a lot of people that don't live anywhere near Torrey, that have never flown Torrey, and they were trying to get me to join the hawks. The fact is, I might make it to Torrey once or twice a year, and I don't think that makes me a 'local' pilot, so I'm content to show up and pay my day fee and fly. . . |
Every Hang Gliding club located near a major flying site has members that aren't local. Many of those non local pilots join in order to promote the positive efforts that club makes for the sport of hang gliding - in that local area. It has no negative relevance whatsoever that the Torey Hawks has non local pilots as members. I would say just the opposite. It's significant, in a very positive way, that The Hawks has non local pilots as members.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| . . . I see no effort to prevent me from doing this, and I don't think Jebb has any intention of changing the 'status quo' so I can't do this. It is my solid belief that any H4 can do this, that's the way it is, the way it has always been, and again, I don't see this changing. |
So, Ryan, as long as you can fly there, with your H4, you couldn't give a lick about local pilots who are being denied a right to fly there?  You'd be better served to take a broader (less selfish) view of the Hang Gliding world if you yourself want to be a good USHPA Regional Director.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
To be blunt, I haven't joined the Hawks because I don't know what BobK is doing as the representative of the Hawks, and I don't want my name attached to something I have no idea what is going on. |
Start by reading ALL the stuff posted here related to the situation. I've read all or nearly all of it, and I, and other members who have done so, have a better grasp of what is going on. If you get elected as a RD in Utah, part of your responsibility will be to hang gliding issues at the NATIONAL level. Be nice if you were familiar with this one.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| Bob, you say you represent 130 (ish) people who want to preserve hang gliding at Torrey... but do you have any reason to believe that H4's will no longer be allowed to fly there? I don't see the ability to hang glide at Torrey as endangered, do you? . . . |
Once again, the hang gliding world does not begin and end with Advanced (H4) pilots. Bob is fighting for fair treatment of all appropriately rated pilots - in regard to Torrey and HG and PG in general. This is a tremendous and unselfish position for Bob to take. I call that true and positive leadership.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C
Last edited by Wingspan34 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:08 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
#44 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
He is running a PG business, and as such has no incentive to promote hang gliding. If this makes him evil, there are a lot of hang gliding shops (myself included) that are just as wrong, as I have no incentive to steering people towards paragliding.
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You seem to be missing the entire point Ryan. Or you havent read much of the Torrey threads.
Do you Ryan, operate your hang gliding business on public tax payer owned land, with a zero cost lease, and allow H0,H1,H2,H3,H4 pilots and disciminate against P0,P1,P2, and P3 pilots, WHO ARE TAX PAYERS?????
Do you ban P4 pilots from your site without a documented reason and provide NO method or recourse, no process to argue your case, no over sight, nothing???
If you do not do the above, then yours business and Jebbs are apples and oranges.
| Quote: |
He is a H4, and as such was able to show up and fly without being hassled in the least. He actually made a point of saying he doesn't know what all the fuss is about.
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Ive stated this would happen several times in the past, but its not even the point.
| Quote: |
No one really TOLD me the hawks aren't a local club, I just got that impression because I have talked to a lot of people that don't live anywhere near Torrey, that have never flown Torrey, and they were trying to get me to join the hawks. The fact is, I might make it to Torrey once or twice a year, and I don't think that makes me a 'local' pilot, so I'm content to show up and pay my day fee and fly. I see no effort to prevent me from doing this, and I don't think Jebb has any intention of changing the 'status quo' so I can't do this. It is my solid belief that any H4 can do this, that's the way it is, the way it has always been, and again, I don't see this changing. |
If you were an H3 you WOULD see an effort to prevent you from flying. Again, you seem to have missed the whole issue.
| Quote: |
The only reason I brought up the 'local club' issue is because I have heard it brought up before (see Brad Hall's letters to Bob), but I haven't heard or seen a response to it.
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I wouldnt give member lists out either. Early on Jebb got a hold of some names of Hawks members, called them, harassed them, and got one to drop out who is a local torrey pilot. When you can ban people with no reason, and there is no process to fix the problem, its easy for him to threaten HG pilots like this. Are you seeing the picture yet?
| Quote: |
| Bob, you say you represent 130 (ish) people who want to preserve hang gliding at Torrey... but do you have any reason to believe that H4's will no longer be allowed to fly there? I don't see the ability to hang glide at Torrey as endangered, do you? |
Of course he does. He is banned from flying there!
Jebb has dictator powers at torrey. There is nothing Bob can do but try to change the system so people in his position have a method of just relief.
I WAGER, that if Jebb thought he could get away with banning H4's are Torrey he would do it in a second. After all, it would help his business right? He has a $$$ incentive.
Jebb is a USHPA RD who clearly discriminates against a large segment of HG pilots who have rights as tax payers to the site. This needs to be known, and I hope to one day see a new RD take his place. Better yet, id like to see a club or someone fair take over the lease.
So again... to summarize, the core issues are:
1) Equal and fair access for HG's at Torrey
2) Fair due process by a neutral third party to resolve disputes
...and by a third party, I do not mean any club that is in Jebbs back pocket.
With fair access and due process we could have a club like marshall/crestline where all the pilots get along. But this kind of situation breeds nothing but bad feelings between HG/PG pilots.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3548
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
#45 |
| sg wrote: |
So again... to summarize, the core issues are:
1) Equal and fair access for HG's at Torrey
2) Fair due process by a neutral third party to resolve disputes |
IMHO, the Torrey threads on this site are actually counter productive to those goals. In addition they inflict collateral damage on the community of this previously newbie friendly site, and the free flight community as a whole. I'm done with this subject.
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Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
#46 |
| sg wrote: |
So again... to summarize, the core issues are:
1) Equal and fair access for HG's at Torrey
2) Fair due process by a neutral third party to resolve disputes
...and by a third party, I do not mean any club that is in Jebbs back pocket. |
I want you (and everyone reading) to know, I understand the issues very well... but here is what I don't understand:
How long has Torrey been a H4 site? It's not like it's a new development, it's not like it suddenly happened and we need to strike back against it. So why is it such big news NOW? Why does there have to be so many threads about the same damn issue?!
And for unfair banning from sites... again, this is nothing new to the sport! Torrey isn't the first to ban someone without just cause. Hell, Larry Tudor is banned from Ellenville. When I was back in NY a few weeks ago Tony (the landowner) wanted to revoke my current helmet sticker and make me pay the $10 day-pass fee without publicly giving a reason why.
I don't mean to be insensitive, but the Torrey threads are killing me... you are all complaining about A) things that have been that way for a very long time, or B) things that happen everywhere, people just don't create 2,000 threads about it
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Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
#47 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
How long has Torrey been a H4 site? It's not like it's a new development, it's not like it suddenly happened and we need to strike back against it. So why is it such big news NOW? |
So if a wrong is a wrong long enough, we should allow the wrong to continue? Is that the logic? 
The HG discrimination, coupled along with banning HG pilots who dont roll over and take it, is what happened. Jebb finally picked on someone who is willing to actively put up a fight.
| Quote: |
And for unfair banning from sites... again, this is nothing new to the sport! Torrey isn't the first to ban someone without just cause. Hell, Larry Tudor is banned from Ellenville. When I was back in NY a few weeks ago Tony (the landowner) .... |
Stop right there. A LAND OWNER wants to stop someone from using his land. Where is the problem?
That is worlds apart from a tax payer, being blocked from flying a tax payer owned site, by some guy who just happen to get a free lease to tax payer land.
(I really dont think its legal actually, and the lease seems to support this IMO, but no one has filed suit yet to test that theory so Jebb does whatever he wants.)
| Quote: |
I don't mean to be insensitive, but the Torrey threads are killing me... you are all complaining about A) things that have been that way for a very long time, or B) things that happen everywhere, people just don't create 2,000 threads about it |
a) Just because people have been wronged for a long time doesnt mean it should continue or women still wouldnt have a right to vote 
b) Does it really happen everywhere? Show me another *private* biz owner blocking tax payers from their own site and profiting from it.
There are a lot of threads because there are a lot of pissed off pilots. I still remember how absurd it was that I couldnt fly torrey as an H3 but could fly a more dangerous local site.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: |
#48 |
| sg wrote: |
a) Just because people have been wronged for a long time doesnt mean it should continue or women still wouldnt have a right to vote
b) Does it really happen everywhere? Show me another *private* biz owner blocking tax payers from their own site and profiting from it. |
What I'm saying is that, at some point, that rule was made for a reason... and everyone agreed on it (or else this debate would have been going on long before hang gliding.org, and there wouldn't need to be pages and pages of people ranting and raving about it).
And when it comes to the banning issue, I find it hard to believe that one side in completely innocent while the other decided to ban them for no good reason. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this would do anyone any good.
What I see is a bunch of pilots who want to "open Torrey up to all hang gliding"... with total disregard for the 'old gaurd' that created the rules in the first place. I'm sure they had a good reason.
Has anyone stopped investigating Jebb long enough to find out what that reason is (and why people didn't contest it until now)?
As for landowner vs leasee, I see your point, but at the same time, I don't.  Doesn't the city have a leasee to make these decisions so they don't have to deal with managing a site. I lease my truck, does that mean I'm not as free to put hang glider racks on it as my neighbor who owns his? Does that mean I have to give rides to everyone that works at Toyota because Toyota owns my truck, and I merely lease it? Surely a leasee has rights too?
I AGREE it is in very bad taste that Jebb has banned people WITHOUT A WRITTEN REASON. That is not to say there isn't a reason... but I agree wholeheartedly THAT is a problem.
But these Torrey threads have exploded and wandered and gotten off topic. If all we were talking about is reinstating BobK, or at least getting a reason WHY he was banned, that'd be great! Then, if we wanted to talk about the H4 requirements at Torrey, fine. Then if we want to discuss a supposed anti-HG attitude, fine. But let's prioritize and focus everyone's energy in ONE direction, PLEASE.
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Ryan Voight
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
#49 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| sg wrote: |
a) Just because people have been wronged for a long time doesnt mean it should continue or women still wouldnt have a right to vote
b) Does it really happen everywhere? Show me another *private* biz owner blocking tax payers from their own site and profiting from it. |
What I'm saying is that, at some point, that rule was made for a reason... and everyone agreed on it (or else this debate would have been going on long before hang gliding.org, and there wouldn't need to be pages and pages of people ranting and raving about it). |
The previous rule is simply NOT relevant because apparently, the leasee has been given the power to set the rating rules. There is NO city rule against H3's flying at Torrey. No one has been able to find it. Im convinced it doesnt exist.
Now either the city gave Jebb the power to set the ratings, or Jebb is illegally allowing P0/P1/P2's to fly at torrey and is hoping the city doesnt notice.
I asked Tess to produce a link to any such rule when she came on here to defend Jebb, and there was no reply, as usual.
| Quote: |
And when it comes to the banning issue, I find it hard to believe that one side in completely innocent while the other decided to ban them for no good reason. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how this would do anyone any good.
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BobK has been completely open with everyone. Call him. He even has a voice recording of Jebb flipping out. On the other hand, ive seen nothing but obstructionism from the Jebb side of the fence. They try to do everything via the back door. Jebb wont even give a written reason. IT SIMPLY STINKS and convinces a lot of people that Jebb is in the wrong.
| Quote: |
What I see is a bunch of pilots who want to "open Torrey up to all hang gliding"... with total disregard for the 'old gaurd' that created the rules in the first place. I'm sure they had a good reason.
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Read above. The only reason that exists right now that im aware of is: It would compete with Jebbs PG business on public land.
| Quote: |
Has anyone stopped investigating Jebb long enough to find out what that reason is (and why people didn't contest it until now)?
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Yes they have and no one can produce a document that states anything. I know of several people who have dug pretty hard, including bob.
| Quote: |
| As for landowner vs leasee, I see your point, but at the same time, I don't. Doesn't the city have a leasee to make these decisions so they don't have to deal with managing a site. I lease my truck, does that mean I'm not as free to put hang glider racks on it as my neighbor who owns his? Does that mean I have to give rides to everyone that works at Toyota because Toyota owns my truck, and I merely lease it? Surely a leasee has rights too? |
The analogy fails, because a lease cannot give you the right to violate another persons rights.
A more accurate analogy would be:
The state of california leases you a truck and allows you to serve snacks to tax payers who borrow and drive the truck. Suddenly, you get mad at one particular tax payer and tell him he cant drive the truck. Sorry.... you cant do that. The tax payer OWNS the truck. Your lease says you can only serve snacks to him, not that you can prevent him from driving HIS property.
I saw nothing in Jebbs lease that allows him to do this.
| Quote: |
I AGREE it is in very bad taste that Jebb has banned people WITHOUT A WRITTEN REASON. That is not to say there isn't a reason... but I agree wholeheartedly THAT is a problem. |
AND there is no process to resolve it. Jebb has dictator like powers in this regard. This is one of the issues bobk has been trying to fix. A neutral third party to resolve disputes is needed. Today, Jebb can ban you with no reason if you look at him funny.
| Quote: |
But these Torrey threads have exploded and wandered and gotten off topic. If all we were talking about is reinstating BobK, or at least getting a reason WHY he was banned, that'd be great! Then, if we wanted to talk about the H4 requirements at Torrey, fine. Then if we want to discuss a supposed anti-HG attitude, fine. But let's prioritize and focus everyone's energy in ONE direction, PLEASE. |
I think thats what people have been trying to do, but then a bunch of apathetic HG pilots start debating against doing anything at all and allowing the status quo. 
When HG pilots are against fighting for equal access to sites they own, we are truly doomed to extinction.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
#50 |
Using the the tax payer analogy, what about Joe the plumber who finds a hang glider in his uncle's garage? Are you saying he has the right to fly there too?
And RE: the H4 requirement, wasn't that in place long before Jebb was the concessionaire? How long does it go back?
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Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
#51 |
If someone can show me a city of san diego document that even states this mythical rule/law, it would go a long way. But I dont think its even relevant at this point. There is a new lease, and that is all that matters. The current law/lease matters, the past undocumented myth law/lease does not. Ive "heard" the old H4 rule existed because of city liability reasons...blah blah, but have never seen it.
Im not aware of any city rule/law that states rating requirements anywhere. As far as I can tell, this is up to the leasee and since its in his $$$ interest, he bans as much HG as he thinks he can get away with. Someone please prove me wrong by pointing us to a real document, not a rumour or hearsay. No one has found it that im aware of.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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HangDiver
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: Salida, Villa Grove, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
#52 |
| Buried. |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
#53 |
I'm not saying does the site HAVE to be a H4 site... I'm merely asking who made it a H4 site? Did THEY have a reason?
It is my belief that Jebb merely adopted the H4 rule from whoever had the lease before him... who may have even adopted the rule from whoever ran things before that?
How far back does it go? I'm not saying Jebb doesn't have incentive to maintain the H4 rule, but I really don't believe HE initiated it. And whoever DID put that rule into effect may very well have had a good reason... but to find that you need to contact the 'old guard' of Torrey... I don't even know who that is?!
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Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
#54 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| I will go on record as someone who knows David Jebb, and doesn't believe him to be an EVIL man. He is running a PG business, and as such has no incentive to promote hang gliding. |
I don't think I've said he's evil, but I do think he has the personality of a bully. Now lots of good productive people have the personality of a bully, and they learn to control it because they're not allowed to get away with it. The problem here is that David Jebb has been allowed to get away with it for too long. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| I think this Torrey thing has really gotten blown out of proportion via the internet, and especially this site. A fellow Ellenville pilot just went on a HG-road-trip, and Torrey was one of his stops. He is a H4, and as such was able to show up and fly without being hassled in the least. He actually made a point of saying he doesn't know what all the fuss is about. |
I'm sure there were people who travelled to Germany under Hitler, and might have made the same comment. And with the elections so near and so much discussion on this site (and in other circles), David Jebb is certainly on his "best behavior". What matters isn't how people act when everyone is looking. What matters is what they do when no one is looking. I am just one person, and there's no way I could have generated this much discussion if there haven't been many many people over the years who've seen Jebb's abuses. Where there's smoke...
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| No one really TOLD me the hawks aren't a local club,... |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| The only reason I brought up the 'local club' issue is because I have heard it brought up before (see Brad Hall's letters to Bob), ... |
Hmmm, there's not quite a contradiction here, but it's close. As I said, there are a lot of people ready to take pot shots at the Hawks because we're starting to gain a critical mass. It's no secret that Brad Hall is David Jebb's friend, and David Jebb is very good at getting his friends to do his dirty work. But will David Jebb come here and speak? No.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| To be blunt, I haven't joined the Hawks because I don't know what BobK is doing as the representative of the Hawks, and I don't want my name attached to something I have no idea what is going on. |
Just call me and ask what I'm doing. My phone number is 858-204-7499, and I have nothing to hide. Honestly, I'd be happy to talk with you.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| Bob, you say you represent 130 (ish) people who want to preserve hang gliding at Torrey... but do you have any reason to believe that H4's will no longer be allowed to fly there? |
Ask Dave Beardslee. According to David Jebb, he can never fly there again. Ask me. I can't fly there for a year. Ask the many people on this forum who just don't like having to walk on eggshells at Torrey. Sure it's getting better - during election season. How long do you think that will last?
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| And if this is because Jebb allows students to fly there, then you have to admit that the Torrey Hawks isn't "promoting hang gliding at Torrey", unless you mean opening it to hang gliding INSTRUCTION? |
I think PG instruction at Torrey is fine. But David Jebb wearing his PG instructor hat has a conflict of interest with David Jebb wearing his flight director hat at the Gliderport. I'm sure this situation exists at other sites, and that's where a person's character comes into play. Many good instructors and business owners can wear both hats. But they have to be people of good character. I am sorry to say, that David Jebb does not have the self control to keep himself from abusing his role as a flight director to satisfy his goals as a business operator. I would say the same about his position as Regional Director.
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| Sorry for the long post, but I think this whole Torrey thing is getting old... |
Try being kicked out of your favorite site for a year (or for life) and tell Dave Beardslee and myself about what's getting old.
Look, there are problems at Torrey and they're not going to go away unless we tackle them head on. If you really want to be helpful, how about this? Please call or write to David Jebb and ask him exactly why he's kicked out David Beardslee and myself. Tell him that you would like an exact quote so you can post it on HangGliding.org and other local and national sites. This seems like it should be a no-brainer so he could get the word out about what terrible things we've done. Please try it and let us know how it goes. Maybe you have a better relationship with David Jebb than some of the others who've similarly asked. So please give it a try. Just be sure that you remember his exact quote so you can report it accurately. Thanks in advance.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
#55 |
SG,
I'd like to propose that a "doorway" be created specifically to a Hang Gliding Politics section of this web site. The Basement used to be USHPA Politics but now it's a mish mash of voted down threads.
Creating a doorway that a member must enter to view hang gliding political threads would eliminate the complaints of the good time charlies. It WOULD make the Front Page more newbie friendly.
I'm sure this wouldn't necessarily be all that easy to do, but I don't know that it's hard either.
I for one (of many?) would just like to be able to discuss hang gliding political issues without having the light weight, fun time party boys continually interjecting their (to some degree valid) negative "this isn't happy talk" comments.
After all there are a large number of pilots who fly for the fun of it and couldn't care less about the efforts needed to maintain our ability to have that fun. Let them be the out front men and women while the serious (old?) guys and gals work to make things better behind the scenes.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
#56 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| After all there are a large number of pilots who fly for the fun of it and couldn't care less about the efforts needed to maintain our ability to have that fun. Let them be the out front men and women while the serious (old?) guys and gals work to make things better behind the scenes. |
I can't help but take offense to this... maybe it was aimed at me, maybe not... but if you think I don't care about the 'efforts needed to maintain our ability to have fun' you are very confused. Talk to any of the pilots in this area about how I'm working hard for fair and equal HG/PG rights at the Point (and I'm not clogging up hg.org with it).
I don't even know if I agree that ALL politics should be moved to another spot- things like the Crestline/Andy Jackson letter writing campaign should definitely be front page news, where everyone will see it (and hopefully act).
I think my point regarding the Torrey threads is being missed- I'm not saying it doesn't need to be discussed, or that it shouldn't be publicised, I'm just saying formulate a plan of attack (IE a letter writing campaign), THEN put it on the front page.
If you all want to chat about Torrey all day long, how hard would it be to 'clone' the hg.org forum on the Torrey Hawks site, then you can all chat away, and those that want to read/discuss it know where to find it... maybe bring important threads over here?
I'm not saying there aren't problems, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I'm just saying that 'hanggliding.org' is turning into 'bitchabouttorrey.org'.... it's all I see when I log in anymore! 
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
#57 |
I'd just like to know if there's a public way to find out who's burying these topics...
In my opinion, this is like shouting someone down just because you don't like what they're saying. This forum has been a place where all kinds of discussions have been held in an open and honest manner. If someone is going to be sending these discussions into the basement, then I think that person deserves public visibility for their efforts - positive or negative.
I apologize in advance if there's a way to find this out that I've missed.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
#58 |
| flyhigh013 wrote: |
| I'm not saying there aren't problems, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, I'm just saying that 'hanggliding.org' is turning into 'bitchabouttorrey.org'.... it's all I see when I log in anymore! |
Maybe that's telling you something!! Let's all work together to fix it, not just sweep it under the carpet. That's been going on for too long.
Dave Beardslee cannot fly at Torrey because of David Jebb. I cannot fly at Torrey because of David Jebb. Many people don't even want to fly at Torrey because of David Jebb. That's a crime against our sport. Come, join us and let's work to make it better. Give David Jebb a call and see if you can fix it and these topics will be gone with the wind. But please don't try to put our freedom of speech in the same grave with our freedom to fly at Torrey.
Most Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
#59 |
Dang. A couple hours ago this was still on the front page - I think. Did it anyone notice when it get buried? I refreshed the page and now it says "basement".
And Ryan, my request to SG for a "behind the scenes" politics specific forum area was not connected in any way to you, or your views - in any specific way, at least. Many members have voiced their dislike of ANY politics on this site - even hang gliding politics. Once again, those displeased (anonymous) members have voted this thread to the basement.
I expect those who enjoy these debates - and see them as accomplishing positive results, as opposed to those who see them simply as useless whining - will be happy to step through a "political doorway". They will be interested in seeing what positive efforts can be made to improve the future of hang gliding. I'm not suggesting any enforced limitations on who can enter the "HG politics zone". As I envision it, that would be up to the individual member.
And Bob, I too would like to see if there is a trend as far as who votes down which thread. I've voted a couple down, but mostly when the debate is dragged into oblivion by false accusations of hate mongering or [fill in blank] bashing.
_________________
WW 141 Fusion SP
Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#60 |
Welcome to "The Basement" where the real business of hang gliding is done.
It sure is tough trying to move our sport forward when we can't even talk about the "bad man".
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
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