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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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 Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
 #21 |
Im not speaking for the hawks, but I kinda think of it as a local AND international club, since Torrey is a local and international site where a lot of pilots wish to visit some day.
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H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
#22 |
OK, in an effort to add clarity to this issue, I went off-line and wrote a quick BASIC program to generate a histogram of our membership by area code. There are a few members who prefer contact by email and not phone number, so if you count the stars, you'll end up with a few less than 130. The largest group is 619 which is central San Diego. The other large groups are almost all from the locations I mentioned (San Diego County, Elsinore, Crestline, Sylmar, and other Southern California locations). I haven't looked up each area code, and maybe someone could do that if they would like (I'd like to see that as well, since we don't have address information in our membership list). Does that help?
[edit] OK, Curiosity got the best of me, and I looked up some of the larger area codes on the maps that I found at: http://www.whitepages.com/maps (I annotated the ones I found). Now I fully expect that this information will somehow be used against the Hawks. I know that David Jebb and Brad Hall have been actively trying to undermine our club with the City of San Diego, and I'm sure they'll find a way to use these numbers against us. I think we deserve better Regional Directors than that, and I encourage everyone in our Region to vote in this election. You can read some of my latest endorsements at http://torreyhawks.org/r3 .
619 ************** San Diego, CA
909 ************ San Bernardino, CA
714 *********** Los Angeles, CA
760 ********** San Diego County, CA
951 ********** Riverside, CA
818 ********* San Fernando (LA Area), CA
626 ******* Pasadena (LA Area), CA
801 ******* Salt Lake City, UT
949 ****** Irvine (LA Area), CA
310 ****** Malibu (LA Area), CA
858 *** San Diego, CA
661 *** Santa Clarita (LA Area), CA
562 *** Long Beach (LA Area), CA
702 ***
831 **
408 **
509 **
650 *
705 *
717 *
805 *
808 *
928 *
281 *
323 *
406 *
413 *
415 *
435 *
503 *
541 *
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Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs
Last edited by bobk on Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:31 am; edited 4 times in total |
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
#23 |
| bobk wrote: |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
As to Mark's comments:
As far as the Torrey Hawks members who actually fly Torrey, I am member #8 and have two options to Fly Torrey:
- Pay $195/day until I am hang 4 [...]
- Form a club and get my own San Diego hang gliding permit. Maybe Bob would get the Hawks a San Diego HG permit (or I will get the Hawks one) and then we can fly there and only be booted by the City Manager. |
KK, as you know, I have discouraged your second option in the past. I've done so because I wanted to work "within the system" as much as possible. But I think we've been a club for well over a year now, and it's clear that USHPA and the SDHGPA are not going to help us. So you have my blessing to begin looking into this. Please send me any specific requests and I'll bring them before our board for their approval.
Thanks very much for your membership and support. I could't ask for a better member #8!!
Bob Kuczewski |
Will do mid-week Bob. Hell, I may even try to help push some papers chortle.
Thanks,
JW |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
#24 |
Thank you, JW. Your enthusiasm is fantastic, and I would like to see you make that work. Call me if you need me to do any local "leg work" since I've been getting down to city hall more often lately.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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bobk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
#25 |
| sg wrote: |
| Im not speaking for the hawks, but I kinda think of it as a local AND international club, since Torrey is a local and international site where a lot of pilots wish to visit some day. |
I think that's a good way to say it. If you look at that area code list you'll find that most of our pilots are local, but we have members in Hawaii and on the east coast as well. I think that some of our members are also currently residing outside of the US as SG suggests.
I don't want to offend anyone else's site, but Torrey is one of the most famous hang gliding and paragliding sites that I know. I think it is a very special place, and I think of it as a national treasure in the HG/PG world. As such, I think USHPA should be taking a more active role in assuring that it is run in a manner appropriate with its visibility to the flying and non-flying public. That is something that I will work toward if I am elected as Regional Director.
_________________
Bob Kuczewski: H4/P4 - Torrey Hawks, CSS, SHGA, E-Team, Soboba Soaring, Founding Member of the HGAA
Learn to fly hang gliders • Join the Torrey Hawks • Fly the Big O Loop!!
"Hang Gliding must be represented by an organization that cannot survive without it" - gs |
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BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
#26 |
crvalley:
| Quote: |
| NO...USHPA should not get involved in this situation. However, if a pilot has threatened closure of a site by his/her actions either in the air or on the ground, then yes, USHPA should consider getting involved with the local flying club and at the local club's request. |
So, just so I get your position straight here let me review:
A: If a USHPA club has a problem with the pilots, the USHPA should get involved.
B: If the pilots have a problem with the club, the USHPA should not get involved.
Why the one way street?
JB |
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Erik Boehm
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Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 2430
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
#27 |
Bob for your info, the 408 area code is San Jose/Milpitas/ Santa clara county.
This covers Ed Levin and Mission, I beleive the other WOR site (Mt. Diablo) is in another area code.
408'ers are likely to visit Fort Funston as well, or the Dumps.
I *suspect* my bro is a member of the hawks, and I don't think he has changed his phone number to reflect his geographic location.
For example I got my phone when I was 408, now I'm in 530, but still have a 408 number.
702 is Las Vegas- fairly nearby
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H4, Litespeed 4 w/ Mylar sail.
Previous: Airwave K2, Wills Wing Eagle 145 |
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fakeDecoy
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 950
Location: Fort Funston, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject: |
#28 |
Ok, this thread makes me nervous. It's none of my business, but I need to point something out.
So far us pilots have been getting off pretty well with the situation at the vast majority of our flying sites. The FAA lets the USHPA regulate the pilot rating program. The local clubs regulate their own sites. The local "regulation" at some of sites I've been to in CA (outside of the SF bay area) is almost non-existent, and some are even declared as unregulated. We like it that way, right? Come and go as we please, don't answer to anyone, resolve our own squabbles with beer and fistfights. Now I don't know how all that regulation stuff works, and my understanding could be off. But do we really want to start on the path of ruining the good thing we have going by giving away some of our power to a central authority to police us, just for the sake of an unfortunate HG situation at Torrey Pines?
Small government! Toot toot!
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H2 / Sport 2 155
There is no spoon.
Never trust internet pilots! |
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HGXC
1 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 2921
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: |
#29 |
| fakeDecoy wrote: |
Ok, this thread makes me nervous. It's none of my business, but I need to point something out.
So far us pilots have been getting off pretty well with the situation at the vast majority of our flying sites. The FAA lets the USHPA regulate the pilot rating program. The local clubs regulate their own sites. The local "regulation" at some of sites I've been to in CA (outside of the SF bay area) is almost non-existent, and some are even declared as unregulated. We like it that way, right? Come and go as we please, don't answer to anyone, resolve our own squabbles with beer and fistfights. Now I don't know how all that regulation stuff works, and my understanding could be off. But do we really want to start on the path of ruining the good thing we have going by giving away some of our power to a central authority to police us, just for the sake of an unfortunate HG situation at Torrey Pines?
Small government! Toot toot! |
Who is advocating giving away power? I see many as trying to get power back in the hands of residents.
Dennis
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Glider = ATOS B-V, Rating = H5 |
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whitemaw
2 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 411
Location: Decatur, Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
#30 |
| Quote: |
Ok, this thread makes me nervous. It's none of my business, but I need to point something out.
So far us pilots have been getting off pretty well with the situation at the vast majority of our flying sites. The FAA lets the USHPA regulate the pilot rating program. The local clubs regulate their own sites. The local "regulation" at some of sites I've been to in CA (outside of the SF bay area) is almost non-existent, and some are even declared as unregulated. We like it that way, right? Come and go as we please, don't answer to anyone, resolve our own squabbles with beer and fistfights. Now I don't know how all that regulation stuff works, and my understanding could be off. But do we really want to start on the path of ruining the good thing we have going by giving away some of our power to a central authority to police us, just for the sake of an unfortunate HG situation at Torrey Pines?
Small government! Toot toot!
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Hear, Hear! 
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H3/AT/FL et.al. |
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BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
#31 |
Everybody wants a small government until it's them that need government intervention -- then it can never be big enough.
JB |
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tokyoDirk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 965
Location: bay area, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#32 |
| designbydave wrote: |
| mgforbes wrote: |
It's all good, and it's all flying. I'd like to see more PG pilots learning to fly HG,
and I'd like to see more HG pilots try out PG too. Part of the difficulty of
attracting PG pilots to HG, besides the heavier and more awkward equipment,
is the pissy attitude of some HG pilots. I've heard that a bunch of times, from
PGers who might otherwise be flying HGs also by now. They don't see the same
level of internal spitefulness in the PG crowd, and they don't want to hang out
with people who act that way. And I have to agree with them, because I see a
clear difference in attitude between the two cultures. It's not a large fraction
of HG pilots, but they're vocal and it doesn't take too many bad apples to taint
the whole batch. |
You sir, are my new hero! This paragraph is EXACTLY how I feel and is the reason for my declined participation in these forums. I logged in just to give you a "3 thumbs up" rating and to type this message.
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sad to read, but I agree whole heartedly.
I just flew with a couple newbies that had their first mountain flights (at Hull). They were talking about how DbyD's videos were what had originally inspired them to pursue HG and how they also wanted to make videos.
If we're so anti-PG that we're antisocial to the point of driving good community members away - we're certainly not helping HG.
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-Dirk
H4,BI - WW U2 145 |
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BubbleBoy
1 thumbs up
Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 3002
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#33 |
Mark, Dave and Dirk ... I'm with all three of you on this subject.
JB
| mooncricket wrote: |
| designbydave wrote: |
| mgforbes wrote: |
It's all good, and it's all flying. I'd like to see more PG pilots learning to fly HG,
and I'd like to see more HG pilots try out PG too. Part of the difficulty of
attracting PG pilots to HG, besides the heavier and more awkward equipment,
is the pissy attitude of some HG pilots. I've heard that a bunch of times, from
PGers who might otherwise be flying HGs also by now. They don't see the same
level of internal spitefulness in the PG crowd, and they don't want to hang out
with people who act that way. And I have to agree with them, because I see a
clear difference in attitude between the two cultures. It's not a large fraction
of HG pilots, but they're vocal and it doesn't take too many bad apples to taint
the whole batch. |
You sir, are my new hero! This paragraph is EXACTLY how I feel and is the reason for my declined participation in these forums. I logged in just to give you a "3 thumbs up" rating and to type this message.
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sad to read, but I agree whole heartedly.
I just flew with a couple newbies that had their first mountain flights (at Hull). They were talking about how DbyD's videos were what had originally inspired them to pursue HG and how they also wanted to make videos.
If we're so anti-PG that we're antisocial to the point of driving good community members away - we're certainly not helping HG. |
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OneFeat
3 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Santa Rosa CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
#34 |
I have talked to a number of PG pilots that expressed intrest in HG.
But I realy just wanted to say, It was awesome catching that thermal with you at hull mooncricket!  |
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tokyoDirk
3 thumbs up
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 965
Location: bay area, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject: |
#35 |
| OneFeat wrote: |
But I realy just wanted to say, It was awesome catching that thermal with you at hull mooncricket! |
dude that was freaking epic!
you gotta stop spanking the experienced pilots - they'll get pissy! 
_________________
-Dirk
H4,BI - WW U2 145 |
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OneFeat
3 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Santa Rosa CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
#36 |
I just fallowed you when you were going up Thanks  |
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bradgeary
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Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 219
Location: SAN DIEGO!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#37 |
| mooncricket wrote: |
| designbydave wrote: |
| mgforbes wrote: |
It's all good, and it's all flying. I'd like to see more PG pilots learning to fly HG,
and I'd like to see more HG pilots try out PG too. Part of the difficulty of
attracting PG pilots to HG, besides the heavier and more awkward equipment,
is the pissy attitude of some HG pilots. I've heard that a bunch of times, from
PGers who might otherwise be flying HGs also by now. They don't see the same
level of internal spitefulness in the PG crowd, and they don't want to hang out
with people who act that way. And I have to agree with them, because I see a
clear difference in attitude between the two cultures. It's not a large fraction
of HG pilots, but they're vocal and it doesn't take too many bad apples to taint
the whole batch. |
You sir, are my new hero! This paragraph is EXACTLY how I feel and is the reason for my declined participation in these forums. I logged in just to give you a "3 thumbs up" rating and to type this message.
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sad to read, but I agree whole heartedly.
I just flew with a couple newbies that had their first mountain flights (at Hull). They were talking about how DbyD's videos were what had originally inspired them to pursue HG and how they also wanted to make videos.
If we're so anti-PG that we're antisocial to the point of driving good community members away - we're certainly not helping HG. |
 all right!!! this is what I'm saying. I have some good news. I have gotten one long time and talented PG Pilot flying HG now. he did his 1st HG flights yesterday. so one more biwing. one down and many more to go.
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SKY PIMP
http://vimeo.com/user942728/videos |
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HangDiver
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 2074
Location: Salida, Villa Grove, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Note for the newer folks among us |
#38 |
| mgforbes wrote: |
USHPA *does* have an office building, which we paid cash for and own free-and-clear. We rent out most of it to two other tenants, one of which is
the US Racquetball Association (the former owners of the building) and
the other is the Eckankar Church. We occupy a portion of the upstairs, and
a small room downstairs for shipping/receiving. We have five paid staff
there, and the building shows a modest net profit per year, in addition to
giving us a place to have our offices rent-free. MGF |
Charge the church more. They can afford it. |
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#39 |
| mgforbes wrote: |
. . . So be nice. Promote ALL of our sport, not just your little piece of it. Be positive and supportive. Don't denigrate "the other guys". Sort out your local squabbles locally. Get involved as a thinking person instead of letting the extreme ends of the spectrum run things. And don't get discouraged when the vocal fringe goes ballistic because you said something reasonable....'cuz they
surely will. MGF |
What gets me is that there is more than one PG shop around that is actively working to KILL hang gliding. This has been going on for a (long?) while. Still, a PG flying USHPA paid writer (Steve Messman) not all that long ago had the GALL to write an article to the general USHPA membership equating (certain) hang glider pilots (or groups thereof) with 1960s hateful, racist bigots.
Going with Messman's perspective and example, couldn't we call individuals like David Jebb proponents of (a version of hang gliding) genocide? Could it be called HG wingocide?
Or, perhaps, to reduce or eliminate the over reacting, emotional side of things, we should say that these people are working for this goal - not because they hate individual hang glider pilots - but simply because it's best for their PG "business"?
Clearly these anti HG, PG centric businesses don't have to hate the people who fly hang gliders. They'd just like to see hang gliders, as objects, disappear from the sky. Then, it would be easier for them to sell their (in many ways, inferior) product to the unknowing/ignorant public.
*****
I for one love to debate and "argue" (in a technical, unemotional way) over such issues. Some people see that and equate it with promoting "hate" for anyone flying PGs. That's just wrong. It's just as bad as claiming that, through his business, David Jebb, and others are actively promoting hang gliding genocide.
But just like David Jebb is in the business of selling PGs, this web site, in connection with one of it's most important goals, is in the business of promoting/selling hang gliding.
As a result, is it so odd that Jebb would want to get a letter of his published here, cutting down BobK's bid for Region #3 Regional Director? Is it odd that an employee of Jebb's would also come here to similarly sling mud at BobK? It's not odd at all. Should we react less than positively to such content? Yes.
But when lovers of the sport of hang gliding call other lovers of hang gliding "PG HATERS" - while, at the same time, people like Jebb work everyday at undermining the future of hang gliding - and they don't come near to calling Jebb the same or worse names, . . . well I begin to question their ability to see the bigger picture and maybe even their own true loyalty to the sport of hang gliding. Look the other way long enough and there may not be a sport called hang gliding around in which to participate.
Question -
Should this web site be a place for people like Jebb to promote his reelection to Region #3 Regional Directorship, or should it be a place where we work hard to get someone with a fair and equal perspective into that elected position?
Finally -
Rights or Privileges? Well, you claim a right. You are granted a privilege.
The USHPA rating system has granted me a rating that gives me the privilege to fly my hang glider (in my case) all most anywhere. David Jebb, as a current USHPA Regional Director, acts to discourage or deny pilots who are similarly privileged, the right to fly at a world famous flying site that is publicly owned. He's violating HG pilot's rights (while hiding behind arbitrary "safety rules") and that's the kind of thing worth fighting for.
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Master rated, First flight - May 1975
FL, PL, PA, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TURB, X-C |
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Holger
2 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Sites: Rights or Privileges? |
#40 |
| BubbleBoy wrote: |
| Mark, Dave and Dirk ... I'm with all three of you on this subject. |
One more for the club. That there are PG schools that discourage people from going HG is sad, but doesn't change my attitude towards PG pilots. Here is the money and business side - and there is the shared enthusiasm for silent flight.
Holger |
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