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Wingspan34
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #81   
Jason wrote:
I believe the no watering came down from the city as an enviromental thing to protect the cliff faces which are notoriously unstable


Well, that certainly would be a pretty serious safety issue in favor of the No Watering policy/rule. But somehow Jebb figured his safety issue was somehow greater than perhaps causing the flight activity area to slide into the ocean?

Of course perhaps the planting and growing of the grass was meant to prevent potentially dangerous erosion. In that case, I would figure it would have been easy for him to get a variance. But he didn't attempt to do so.

This single issue is clearly, all on it's own, a good bit more complicated than it seems. But still, in his letter, Jebb reduces it to an overly simple conflict - with Bob K as the villain. Sounds like just so much dirty politics to me - on Jebb's part.

On the other hand, Bob K presents himself as fighting the good fight for fairness at Torrey Pines and with a serious likelihood of representing the Region #3 USHPA pilots (of both kinds) with respect and a lack of biased self interests.

Good luck Bob.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #82   
Jason wrote:
>>>>>>>>based on the false fact that Torrey and I are against hangliding.
I have heard Jebb and his staff numerous times actively discourage HG, infact there is only one member of the staff that haven't heard that from, I have respect for, Stack

>>>Thanks once again for your support!
You do not have my support


I have not heard the same thing directly, but numerous pilots have told me the same things over the past couple of years. When I was trying to find a HG instructor several years ago, I was told by someone over there on the phone that Hang Gliding was basically becoming obsolete.

I voted for Bob because Jebb's in the sport for the money. I don't have a problem with anyone being in it for the money, but they aren't as likely to do what is good for the sport as someone that isn't worried about his pocketbook.
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Jason
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #83   
Jacmac wrote:
Jason wrote:
>>>>>>>>based on the false fact that Torrey and I are against hangliding.
I have heard Jebb and his staff numerous times actively discourage HG, infact there is only one member of the staff that haven't heard that from, I have respect for, Stack

>>>Thanks once again for your support!
You do not have my support


I have not heard the same thing directly, but numerous pilots have told me the same things over the past couple of years. When I was trying to find a HG instructor several years ago, I was told by someone over there on the phone that Hang Gliding was basically becoming obsolete.

I voted for Bob because Jebb's in the sport for the money. I don't have a problem with anyone being in it for the money, but they aren't as likely to do what is good for the sport as someone that isn't worried about his pocketbook.


how is saying something is obsolete not "actively discouraging", its a blatently false statement to get someone to learn something you are selling

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Wingspan34
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #84   
Jason wrote:
. . . how is saying something is obsolete not "actively discouraging", its a blatently false statement to get someone to learn something you are selling


Well, there you go. The best SALESMEN are often masters of deception and manipulation. But do you want your Region #3 Regional Director to be a good at such things? Or good at fair and equal representation?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #85   
Wingspan34 wrote:
Jason wrote:
. . . how is saying something is obsolete not "actively discouraging", its a blatently false statement to get someone to learn something you are selling


Well, there you go. The best SALESMEN are often masters of deception and manipulation. But do you want your Region #3 Regional Director to be a good at such things? Or good at fair and equal representation?
Further more, if he actually believed what he was saying, do you want an RD that thinks HG is obsolete
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #86   
Jason wrote:
Further more, if he actually believed what he was saying, do you want an RD that thinks HG is obsolete


No. And I think such RDs should themselves become "obsolete". good idea

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: RDs obsolete? Reply with quote #87   
Wingspan34 wrote:
I think such RDs should themselves become "obsolete".


Ok...what administrative structure would you propose instead? I'm ok with
a benevolent dictatorship, as long as I get to be dictator. Mr. Green

Our current structure has regional directors elected by the members, from
different areas of the country. These 20 people are directly elected. They
select an additional five directors-at-large, who can be from anywhere,
and who typically have skills or knowledge of particular value. Dennis Pagen,
Riss Estes, Jon James, Leo Bynum and Mike Haley are the current ones.
They're elected for a one-year term at the fall BOD meeting. There is also one
"ex-officio" director, which is an appointment by NAA. That's Art Greenfield. In
return, the president of USHPA has a seat on the NAA board.

There's been some discussion of restructuring USHPA, moving to a more
professional board composed of fewer people. That would move it away from
the membership-driven model it has now, and toward a structure more like
a corporation, either for-profit or nonprofit. Doing so would require fundamental
changes to the Bylaws and Articles, and would need a membership vote to
implement. Is this a direction you'd like to see us move toward? Such a BOD
might consist of a half-dozen people, possibly compensated at some level,
with management driven less by membership concerns and more by the
interests of the association. (And I'm not explaining this very well, because I'm
a bit fuzzy on how it would work.)

Somebody has to make decisions and determine how we should proceed. I
just spent a couple hours with Riss, Rich, Lisa and Paul on the phone, going
over next year's budget draft. Inherent in that work is the need to balance
priorities, decide where we're going to put our effort, and gauge what the
payback is for the money and effort we put in. We can't fund everything we'd
like to, and there are some things that we can't avoid spending money on. In
between are things that we might be able to support, or might be able to cut.
We'll go over this in greater detail during the finance committee meeting next
week, and present a final budget to the board for approval.

If regional directors are made obsolete, as you suggest, then how do you
think the interests of USHPA members should be represented in the
decision-making process? (If in fact, you think that they should be at all.)

MGF
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #88   
Jacmac wrote:
[ When I was trying to find a HG instructor several years ago, I was told by someone over there on the phone that Hang Gliding was basically becoming obsolete.


I guess you could describe this as the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy, in terms of hang gliding at Torrey;
- do your best to discourage hang gliding, and then when predictably hang gliding numbers start to dwindle, complain it's becoming obsolete and use it as a reason to take up paragliding instead..... NICE ONE! crazy

I think any local hang glider pilot who cares about the sport of hang gliding at all, outside of their own involvement, should be ashamed of themselves if they were to vote for Jebb.
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Wingspan34
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #89   
Mark,

Woe! If you read my comment, it was that RDs who think hang gliding is obsolete, should themselves become obsolete. As in, not get reelected.

Now please tell me that your not trying to tell us that ALL the USHPA RDs think hang gliding is obsolete and therefore, per my suggestion, we must get rid of the whole RD system. Shocked ahh

Still, I suppose it's nice to know that the USHPA is thinking of asking the membership if we want to let them create a for profit corp that really will promote PG over hang gliding. If it's like all those other USHPA member votes I'll even take bets on the results. Confused I won't enjoy winning those bets, but . . .

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Message from David Jebb, Region 3 Director Reply with quote #90   
Wingspan34 wrote:
Jason wrote:
Further more, if he actually believed what he was saying, do you want an RD that thinks HG is obsolete


No. And I think such RDs should themselves become "obsolete". good idea


Mark, you might have saved yourself some time by noting the word "such" in that statement. But your discussion of USHPA restructuring is enlightening, and I appreciate it.

My concern is that any organization that grows from membership will necessarily create a management structure. And over time that management structure can become a cause unto itself - sometimes serving its needs above the needs of the membership. So I like the idea that a "nobody" from San Diego (like myself) can at least have a prayer of unseating an incumbent like David Jebb. However, the deck is somewhat stacked against a challenger like myself. It's my understanding that an incumbent RD (like David Jebb) has access to all club membership lists (or maybe just those in his region?). David Jebb has already used this access to contact the members of our club (the Torrey Hawks) and try to get them to quit. This is a clear abuse of his power. Now I personally think that USHPA should either not be providing such lists to their RDs, or if they are going to provide them, then USHPA should apply stiff penalties to any RDs who abuse that power.

And this goes back to what I mentioned about management structures that become causes unto themselves. I've seen USHPA RDs voting themselves more power (as in the Emergency Rating Revocation). Sometimes this power is needed, but it can be easily abused. That's why I think any such additional powers should come with stiff penalties for abuse. Unfortunately (as with the case of the Emergency Rating Revocation) these powers are often added with no provisions for disciplining those RDs who might abuse that new power.

So that's why we have elections, and that's why we have challengers to the existing power structure. I am running for Regional Director (Region 3) because I want to see USHPA serve the interests of the pilots in our Region and not just the interests of David Jebb.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Club Rosters Reply with quote #91   
bobk wrote:
It's my understanding that an incumbent RD (like David Jebb) has access to all club membership lists (or maybe just those in his region?).


Not through USHPA, so far as I'm aware. Club membership lists are often
published on the web (the clubs I belong to, for example, do so) but the club
rosters submitted each year as part of the renewal process are not available
to directors as a normal matter of routine.

I certainly don't have access to such lists, and the only way I know of to get such
access would be to physically go to the office in Colorado and look at them, or
have them faxed to me by the office staff. So far as I'm aware, that's not been
requested by any regional director. I'll check on that and see if it's been done
and I wasn't informed, but the office staff would ordinarily consult me on such
an action during an election cycle. Club rosters are submitted on paper, not
electronically on a standardized form, so they may range from hand-written
notes to laser-printed spreadsheets. I keep our local club roster on an Excel
spreadsheet, with hot links to the expiration date list from the database so I
can see who's expired and needs a reminder to renew. Once a year I print it
out and send it in with the club renewal packet.

One of the reasons that I instituted the "email blast" program for candidates was
so that non-incumbents would have an equal opportunity to address members
in their region through the auspices of USHPA. Or you (or any other candidate)
may purchase a one-time-use set of mailing labels and send out snail-mail
to the members. The email coverage is about 60-70%, between non-entries
and stale addresses, but it's better than nothing.

MGF
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: emergency revocations Reply with quote #92   
bobk wrote:
I've seen USHPA RDs voting themselves more power (as in the Emergency Rating Revocation). Sometimes this power is needed, but it can be easily abused. That's why I think any such additional powers should come with stiff penalties for abuse. Unfortunately (as with the case of the Emergency Rating Revocation) these powers are often added with no provisions for disciplining those RDs who might abuse that new power.


We've had recent need to use this a few times, up in this corner of the world. I
won't comment on specifics, except to say that it was a matter of serious concern
about the prospect of injuries and loss of a site. There are some significant
checks on its use; it has to be approved all the way up the tree, so it can't just be
done on a whim. If such an action is needed, the EC is aware of it (and it's
probably been discussed at some length).

MGF
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #93   
Hello Mark,

Please do check on the membership access mentioned in your previous post. I should point out that these abuses were not necessarily connected to the upcoming election. I've heard reports from members of the Hawks that they were contacted by Mr. Jebb and pressured to quit our club. I also recall hearing that Brad Hall had obtained a list of our membership earlier this year. It would be good to know if this is happening either formally or informally.

Thanks,
Bob Kuczewski
Candidate for Region 3 Director

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Musing on BOD evolution Reply with quote #94   
Wingspan34 wrote:

If you read my comment, it was that RDs who think hang gliding is obsolete, should themselves become obsolete. As in, not get reelected.


Ahhh...the subtleties of email. Now I gotcha.

Discussions of board structure have taken place so far at the theoretical level.
In many associations, the size of boards has been pared down in recent years
and the composition of them has become more "professional". This is partly
as a result of new regulations (Sarbanes-Oxley, notably) which mandate a
higher level of professional skill for directors of nonprofit corporations. While we
are not yet large enough ($/year) to be *forced* to adhere to the new rules, we
still try to conform to the sensible parts where we can. That brings us some new
challenges.

For example, I believe the new rules require the presence of certain defined
skills on a board, such as a certified public accountant, and possibly legal
counsel. How do you conform to a rule like that, when your directors are
elected by the membership from within its ranks? I'm just an electronics
design engineer; I may chair Insurance and Elections, but what I know about
those subjects has been learned on-the-job, and I don't have a formal
background or certification in either one. As Treasurer, I keep an eye on the
books, but I'm not an accountant or trained in that science. We have people
who do that work, who are properly trained, and my role is to keep an eye on
things and make sure it all passes the "sniff test". But under the newer rules
being proposed, that might not be good enough.

Thus, discussions of how our board might evolve, and whether it should
evolve, and what our options may be. At least now, with stable finances,
planning in place and a solid staff, we can afford the luxury of thinking long-
term, instead of wondering how we're going to cover next month's rent. That's
a good place to be, compared to where we were through much of our history.

MGF
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: emergency revocations Reply with quote #95   
mgforbes wrote:
bobk wrote:
I've seen USHPA RDs voting themselves more power (as in the Emergency Rating Revocation). Sometimes this power is needed, but it can be easily abused. That's why I think any such additional powers should come with stiff penalties for abuse. Unfortunately (as with the case of the Emergency Rating Revocation) these powers are often added with no provisions for disciplining those RDs who might abuse that new power.

We've had recent need to use this a few times, up in this corner of the world. I won't comment on specifics, except to say that it was a matter of serious concern about the prospect of injuries and loss of a site. There are some significant checks on its use; it has to be approved all the way up the tree, so it can't just be done on a whim. If such an action is needed, the EC is aware of it (and it's probably been discussed at some length).

MGF


I think we've discussed this before, and I thought we determined that any Regional Director can temporarily suspend any pilot's rating with a verbal concurrence of the Chair of Safety and Training. That's not much of an approval "all the way up the tree". But more importantly, there were no direct provisions included for punishing a Regional Director who abuses this power. If we're going to give RD's the power to ground us, then it should come with a penalty for abusing that power.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: RDs obsolete? Reply with quote #96   
mgforbes wrote:
Wingspan34 wrote:
I think such RDs should themselves become "obsolete".


Ok...what administrative structure would you propose instead? I'm ok with
a benevolent dictatorship, as long as I get to be dictator. Mr. Green

Our current structure has regional directors elected by the members, from
different areas of the country. These 20 people are directly elected. They
select an additional five directors-at-large, who can be from anywhere,
and who typically have skills or knowledge of particular value. Dennis Pagen,
Riss Estes, Jon James, Leo Bynum and Mike Haley are the current ones.
They're elected for a one-year term at the fall BOD meeting. There is also one
"ex-officio" director, which is an appointment by NAA. That's Art Greenfield. In
return, the president of USHPA has a seat on the NAA board.

There's been some discussion of restructuring USHPA, moving to a more
professional board composed of fewer people. That would move it away from
the membership-driven model it has now, and toward a structure more like
a corporation, either for-profit or nonprofit. Doing so would require fundamental
changes to the Bylaws and Articles, and would need a membership vote to
implement. Is this a direction you'd like to see us move toward? Such a BOD
might consist of a half-dozen people, possibly compensated at some level,
with management driven less by membership concerns and more by the
interests of the association. (And I'm not explaining this very well, because I'm
a bit fuzzy on how it would work.)

Somebody has to make decisions and determine how we should proceed. I
just spent a couple hours with Riss, Rich, Lisa and Paul on the phone, going
over next year's budget draft. Inherent in that work is the need to balance
priorities, decide where we're going to put our effort, and gauge what the
payback is for the money and effort we put in. We can't fund everything we'd
like to, and there are some things that we can't avoid spending money on. In
between are things that we might be able to support, or might be able to cut.
We'll go over this in greater detail during the finance committee meeting next
week, and present a final budget to the board for approval.

If regional directors are made obsolete, as you suggest, then how do you
think the interests of USHPA members should be represented in the
decision-making process? (If in fact, you think that they should be at all.)

MGF


Mark you are going way to complicated here. All there needs to be is standards set that a proposed candidate must adhere to before he is allowed to run. One of those standards could be his/her equal support for all wing types and if there is a supported question on this a review committee would take that under its task.

To run for a public office there are simple age requirements and in some cases you may be required to be a natural born citizen. It not new in election processes to have requirements.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: This Has to Stop! Reply with quote #97   
Bob Kuczewski:
You need to stop lying! Though the majority of your messages are very likely to be true due to the fact they are regarding your “intentions”, and no one may claim to be sure of your intentions other than yourself, there are a few things you have said that I personally know for a fact are blatant lies.

I am the office girl at the Torrey Pines Gliderport. I have been here for a little more than a year, much less time than some of you have probably been around, but in my time here I have witnessed enough to establish an opinion and know what is truth and what is lies. I want to make it very clear that what I say on this forum is my opinion, and is being said because it is a decision that I have made after reading what has been said here.

First, to the pilots who are planning to vote for Bob as Region 3 Director:
I respect your vote and I would not try to convince you to vote otherwise. If you are making the choice based on personal experience at Torrey or on incidents that you know to be, in fact, true, then there is no reason that someone should try to convince you that your feelings are invalid. However; if you are making your vote based on things that you have never personally experienced, are not sure really happened, or because of the opinions of other pilots that you barely know other than from reading their posts on this forum (many of which are not even located in California): you may want to do some more thinking and research about the issue.

So to set some things straight…I call attention to Bob K.:
You sound great, and very convincing. Congratulations. You also sound utterly pathetic, full of lies, and a lot of deception to me and everyone else who have witnessed your behavior and then read your representation of yourself on this forum. I will not address any issues that I have not observed personally! I will address a couple of things that I know are either absolutely inaccurate truths or else are sadly misinterpreted by you, Bob.

First: “…I did not “provoke” staff members or argue with anyone.”
What? What are you talking about? Maybe you are experiencing an unfortunate case of epilepsy, but you have intentionally started arguments that I have witnessed.
1) I specifically remember a time when David asked you into his office to speak with you about issues regarding your presence at Torrey. I personally heard his calm tone and willingness to welcome you into the community, and his attempt to help you understand why you may have been receiving vibes of discontent. He was clearly trying to resolve issues with you, and make you welcome and happy. It was you, it was Bob K. who rose his voice and began shouting and repeating himself. It was Bob K. who began a scene that escalated to the point that I had to step away from customers that I was helping at the time. It was Bob K. who made it necessary for me to close the door of David’s office because of the hollering that was beginning to draw negative attention and questions from people in the area.
2) How about the time that you ran around with your tape recorder all day and persisted to harass me with stupid questions and paranoid delusions? In case that doesn’t ring a bell, let me remind you. I’m 5’3”, blonde, blue eyes, and I work in the office. I am the girl who had you fill out the site paperwork, took your emergency contact form, checked your USHPA membership, took your payment, made sure that you signed into the clip board, and then reviewed the recent changes in site rules and regulations. Remember our conversation about when beach landing was okay and when it was not? I made myself very clear. After our introduction and conversation you were really great about following the rules for a few weeks. I didn’t have a single problem with you, regardless of the arguments I had heard you start with my co-workers. None at all. You started beach landing, which was fine because you called the office like I asked you to and let me know what had happened. But then, for whatever reason, you started deciding not to call or else to call after you were halfway up the trail and I had already received calls from lifeguards complaining about you landing on the beach without a call from me. This put me in a tough situation with the lifeguards, and jeopardized my credibility with them. That’s when I decided to approach you for the first time, in a complete non-argumentative fashion. I approached you as I would any pilot who had done what you did. I simply asked why you had not called upon landing on the beach and asked you not to make that mistake again. You seemed relatively calm and apologetic. You then proceeded to pace around the field while looking up and speaking into a tape recorder. I know this because the window next to my desk directly looks out into the grass on which you were standing. Following that, you came into the store and began questioning me, I suspect with the tape recorder on and in your pocket, about whether or not David Jebb was recording every time and date that you landed on the beach. I found this question completely insane and irrational and decided not to play into your paranoid delusions and refuse to answer your question. I figured that if you were asking questions like that you were obviously upset about something and that I should just ignore you so you could calm down. Instead, the more I ignored you and refused to answer your questions, the more upset you got, the more times you repeated yourself, and the louder your voice became. Following this, David’s wife, Maya, was introduced into the situation because she knew that you were arguing with one of the staff members and came in to ask you to stop. That’s when you turned on her and proceeded to sit in the office and hoot and holler for almost an hour about how you felt you were being singled out and how you would love to take the opportunity to take over ownership of the Gliderport.

So there you have it: Two situations that I have personally witnessed that prove that you are lying about your behavior at the Gliderport, as well as proving that David’s reasons for denying you access to the site are valid as he stated them.

Second: “The truth is that I was kicked out for a year because I was gaining tremendous support from almost everyone I met at the Gliderport – hang glider and paraglider pilots alike.”
Are you joking? This is the part where it seems that you are sadly misinterpreting things. What tremendous support are you talking about?
For those of you who were fortunate to fly Torrey this past weekend, the 10th-12th, you know that the wind was great. It was amazing. I was extremely excited to see so many hang gliders here. I spoke with several of you about how great it was to see you guys in the air and how hang gliders are simply fascinating to watch. For those of you who weren’t here, I sincerely hope to see more of you next time the winds are that good. So anyways, where was Bob K. during this wonderful flying day? He was not only not flying at Torrey, but he wasn’t even flying at another local site. Instead he was lurking around the parking lot trying to grab attention for the Torrey Hawks. How do I know this? Because Bob K. does not have the tremendous support from hang gliders and paragliders alike! I know he was in the parking lot bothering people because several, I repeat, several pilots who do not work for Torrey walked into the office and informed us that he seemed up to something. Now why would pilots who tremendously support Bob come into the office to let us know they suspect him of being “up to something?” Bob was certainly not kicked out of Torrey because “David felt threatened” or because Bob had such “tremendous support” from anyone. In fact, I cannot name a single person that I have ever seen here that I am aware supports Bob, only those who complain about his being a nuisance and distraction to the purity that free flight should be.

These are only a few incidents that I have witnessed. There are certainly more as well as many rumors and misunderstandings that I know to be inaccurate or blown out of proportion in Bob’s favor. If any of you pilots want to ask further questions, I also extend an invitation to explain what I can regarding only the incidents that I have witnessed. I will say, for those of you who plan to attack me or insult me, I will ignore your opinions and brush them off my shoulder because what I have said here has been simply what I know to be true due to my seeing it happen. These are my opinions so know that any comments you make about the Torrey staff as a result of anything I have said are also null and void because I am simply speaking for myself.

Bob,
You have a great voice on some issues, but you are lying about others. You continuously state that David is a liar in your response to his statement, but you, yourself are lying.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Why is it such a human tendency to take something that man has created simply to enjoy and explore his abilities, and turn it into yet another thing to divide us all?

Tess


Last edited by SaveTorrey on Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mgforbes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: RDs obsolete? Reply with quote #98   
HGXC wrote:
[All there needs to be is standards set that a proposed candidate must adhere to before he is allowed to run. One of those standards could be his/her equal support for all wing types and if there is a supported question on this a review committee would take that under its task.


If you want to write amendments to the Bylaws and Articles that would require
all candidates to pass some sort of evaluation test before being allowed to
run for regional director, by all means go for it. "All there needs to be" is a well-
thought-out system for doing what you propose, with all the details worked out,
and broad consensus among our members that things should be changed to
your scheme, along with conformance to California nonprofit law. You're a far
smarter guy than me, so you can probably knock it out over the weekend. Me,
I wouldn't even think of tackling such a project. ahh run

As Elections chairman, I do try to make candidates aware of what they're
signing up for, and I ask them to think about what skills they bring to our board
apart from "X years flying Y different gliders at Z different sites." Having broad
representation across the country is good, IMHO, and it dilutes the influence
of someone who only is involved in one aspect of our sport. I can see why
there might be a trend toward smaller boards, differently structured, but I'm
not at all convinced that WE should go that route. But we discuss a lot of ideas
and many of them don't get past the talking stage.

MGF
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Erik Boehm
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #99   
Save Torrey:
First, I am not in the region, I cannot cast a vote either way, I do not know either party.

Bob K may very well be a troublemaker with a temper.
Jebb may very well not fit the sterotype ex-cop persona.

What is indisputable fact, and not a retelling of anecdotes, is that Jebb has set rules contradicting internationally accepted safety rules - re: tandem right of way.

Jebb willfully defied the law re: watering, and is trying to (well that is assuming he actually wrote the letter that started this thread - please correct us if he did not authorize this letter in his name) pin it on Bob, when the no watering is due to THE LAW.

Jeb has no more right to run publically owned torrey than any one else once the lease is up, he has no inherent claim to the site. Getting rid of jeb does not Destroy/Kill Torrey, - as a subjective aside, I find your screen name's "Save" misleading

The regional director cannot change torrey leadership or affect its management, a new regional director will have very little effect on torrey -- once again, this is not a "Save Torrey" issue, but either a "Curb Jebb's Power" or "stop a nut from becoming an RD" issue

Jeb requires a higher rating for hanggliders than paragliders, and does not teach hang gliding

Jebb would have us beleive (based on his verifiable rules he has set) we need advanced hangglider pilots to fly there safely, yet P0's who don't know what to do without radio commands can safely fly there

Everything else related to Jebb's interactions with the hanggliding community is harder to determine fact from rumor.

We have an RD who does not follow the law, and does not follow common safety rules.
This is #1

#2 is the strong suspicion he does not support hanggliding's best interests mind, but ONLY those of PGs.
Its fine if he has PGing interests in mind in tandem with those of HGs, I don't expect an RD to get elected and say F*k PGs, but, I'd hope an RD is looking out for both sports

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SaveTorrey
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:18 pm    Post subject: "Save Torrey" Reply with quote #100   
Erik,
I completely understand your concerns. As I said earlier, my intentions of posting on this forum are to voice my own opinions of things that I know for a fact are lies, and to answer any questions that I can about situations that I directly witnessed or am involved in the I-kinda-can-try-to-help manner. I obviously have no power in this situation other than to say that I have seen both sides, and that there have definitely been some mistakes made by many people regarding this issue.
Notice that when I make comments about Bob K., they are simply regarding things that he has said that I know to be untrue, and I do not respect lying. I know that David's mentioning of the water situation brought about an obvious predicament that many of you are mentioning, but he was honest. He didn't lie about it, but I know what you all are saying.
As far as David having no more authority than anyone else to run the gliderport once the lease is up...this is true. A no brainer as far as legal definitions go. But the fact is is that all of the rules and regulations that are mostly being complained about here are in his power to enforce while he still does hold the lease. There are many reasons behind the rules that have been made, i.e., tandem right of way, difference in rating requirements, and the reasons that we don't teach hang gliding anymore. These are all things that I was not involved in the decision of, and therefore will not answer due to the fact that I am not part of those decisions. I am confident that if any of you wanted to call the gliderport and personally ask to speak with David about those things, that David would be more than willing to help you understand the situation more.
I would also like to say that this entire idea that David does not have the interest of hang gliders in mind and that there is an anti-hang vibe at Torrey is completely insane though. I love seeing the hang gliders outside. Both David and I were both speaking about how nice it was to see so many of you at Torrey this past weekend. David used to hang glide. Two of our other instructors are hang gliders, and one is extremely dedicated to the sport. In fact, it is one of our hang gliding instructors who gave Bob K. his rating.
I know for a fact that Bob K. has had a lot of fun at Torrey. It is he himself that prides flying a paraglider, a hang glider, RC, and a sail plane all in the same day there! You know he had to have been having fun. Why things have turned so sour all of a sudden in the last year, seeing as David has been running Torrey for about twelve years, I don't understand. But I can assure you that we enjoy seeing you out here and wish that more would come to fly, even if only for a day.
We can work out the predicaments with the water, we already have. We can possibly work out all the other problems here. But we can't turn a liar into a truthful person. That is why I chose "SaveTorrey." Because it is where I work, where I love to be, and where I know that I can trust those around me like family. I enjoy working there, it's the best job I've had in my life, and David is the best boss that I have ever had.
Please, I encourage you to contact David, be it email or phone. He wants to hear your opinions and serve Region 3 to the best of his abilities. Just please don't call yelling, or send emails with a bunch of cuss words and stuff. Otherwise he might not be so happy with me. Laughing

Tess[/b]
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