Polarize people toward not having a civil discussion
SeeMarkFly wrote:
First order, second order, and third order, is there a fourth order?
No thanks.
First order DEATH
Second order FUN
Third order COST
Is that the direction you did NOT want want to take?
Anyone lurking.....tell me if I'm off base. _________________ Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy.
just talking about fatalities of either of these hobbies is possibly going turn away a up-and-becoming pilot. Sure, decisions should be made and SOON for a to-be-pilot. Threads like this might not be necessary for the worlds #1 HG site, seemingly to some, this one is bashing PG, no need for that. In proper conditions they can fly as safe( I think) as an HG. And when it all comes down to the wire, no pun intended, I'd help ANYBODY, regardless of their wing, and would expect or hope for the same.
sorry if I overread the Thread, been drinkin'. Everybody fly safe..........enjoy your weekend!
RT................
thumb down?......you are a person of thought and opinion....wear it as a badge of honor. Stand up for what you feel. Thanks
suk it up butter cup,i know all about thumbs down.You can be on my team,the thumbs down team.I suck and u suck, deal with it.Para is 4 fags and hg is 4 fools.Have i coverd everything here?.Oh ya PISS OFF!!.
just talking about fatalities of either of these hobbies is possibly going turn away a up-and-becoming pilot. Sure, decisions should be made and SOON for a to-be-pilot. Threads like this might not be necessary for the worlds #1 HG site, seemingly to some, this one is bashing PG, no need for that. In proper conditions they can fly as safe( I think) as an HG. And when it all comes down to the wire, no pun intended, I'd help ANYBODY, regardless of their wing, and would expect or hope for the same.
sorry if I overread the Thread, been drinkin'. Everybody fly safe..........enjoy your weekend!
RT................
thumb down?......you are a person of thought and opinion....wear it as a badge of honor. Stand up for what you feel. Thanks
That was a three thumber.Well said RT _________________ Always a student.
"The mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says." - Bruce Stobbe
Noman, you are a fag if you don't come fly with me n Chris V. tomorrow.. Piss off !!
Dirty and I will pick you up at 8:00a.m. Tomorrow. _________________ Always a student.
"The mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says." - Bruce Stobbe
suk it up butter cup,i know all about thumbs down.You can be on my team,the thumbs down team.I suck and u suck, deal with it.Para is 4 fags and hg is 4 fools.Have i coverd everything here?.Oh ya PISS OFF!!.
HGers calling PG dangerous is the pot calling the kettle black. You forget your sport has killed many pilots and had a questionable safety rating for many years. Only recently have the stats changed.
Also the differences in flying these things are huge. Paragliding is a lot easier to learn and there are a lot more people getting into it that normally would not even consider flying a hang glider. The sport is blowing up and there are so many more people flying pg that there are simply more accidents than hg. Its simple numbers.
I'm biwingal and the bottom line is they are both dangerous! If you think one is more dangerous than the other than you are missing the big picture.
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Scuba is in the water, we are in the air.
Motorcycles are on the road, we are in the air.
Skiers are on slopes in snow, we are in the air.
Quotes like that don't help your argument. They show that you don't respect those sports and may even show you have a dangerous attitude, especially if you were to take up any of those sports. Besides, motorcycles are probably the most "dangerous" simply because so much is out of your hands, all it takes is one other person not paying attention and you are dead. At least with flying the pilot is making most of the life and death decisions.
I think hg pilots who are afraid of pg and think it is sure death have a very dangerous attitude, it seems you have lost the respect for all aviation, and forget that all of these sports can easily kill us, including HG! After all HG has been around for decades, yet people are still launching unhooked and people are still getting tumbled and killed. Even though its had many more years to mature than pg, its still not exactly a safe sport!
I really struggle to remain quite when hg's are pointing figures at pg when a quick history lesson shows the true nature of both. If anything the long term reputation of hg has hurt the image of safety in freeflight more than anything.
There were still MORE HG pilots in 2007 than PG pilots, so the claim that there are way more PG pilots, therefore more accidents is clearly wrong.
There are more accidents simply because that is the nature of PG.
The number of PG pilots is also leveling off, I see NO explosion in the charts, see for yourself.
For me, the big difference in safety when it comes to HG vs PG, is this.
If I die HG-ing, its because of a mistake **I MADE**.
Ive seen too many PG pilots eat it because of a random turbulence puff near the ground, or high which they cant recover from. Flying a wing with no frame is a lightweight version of Russian Roulette no matter how much spin you try to inject. Virtually all PG pilots will experience a collapse if they fly for any period of time in thermals. I will never experience a collapse on a hang glider. I will never get gift wrapped either, and tumbles are not remotely as common as collapses. Cant equivocate those two.
So for me, the piece of mind of being able to fly my wing, without having to constantly "actively fly it" so it doesn't collapse, makes hang gliding enjoyable. I could never relax in a PG in thermals, always wondering if this will be the day the wing folds up on me because it's just a matter of time if I fly any decent amount of time.
Link _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Last edited by sg on Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
For me, the big difference in safety when it comes to HG vs PG, is this.
If I die HG-ing, its because of a mistake I MADE.
Ive seen too many PG pilots eat it because of a random turbulence puff near the ground, or high which they can’t recover from. Flying a wing with no frame is a lightweight version of Russian roulette no matter how much spin you try to inject. Virtually all PG pilots will experience a collapse if they fly for any period of time in thermals. I will never experience a collapse on a hang glider. I will never get gift wrapped either, and tumbles are not remotely as common as collapses. Can’t equivocate those two.
So for me, the piece of mind of being able to fly my wing, without having to constantly "actively fly it" so it doesn’t collapse, makes hang gliding enjoyable. I could never relax in a PG in thermals, always wondering if this will be the day the wing folds up on me because it just a matter of time if I fly any real amount of time.
I agree with the safety side of it. Coming from para to hang has been awesome. When it starts to get rowdy there is no worries of collapse, and whether or not this one will cravat or easily pump out. Yeah you can get hurt doing either one, but a rogue piece of air can not cravat a hang to the point of not flying. I still fly both and will continue to do so. I just feel safer flying my hang glider. Mind you all this is only "my" opinion.
Your stats don't take into account how many active pilots there are, or how many people are flying without USHPA.
Every where I have seen mountain soaring I have seen ACTIVE pg pilots out number hg at least 10 to one. The exception is flat states where areotow rules, and probably always will. Overall though the pg classes get larger every year while hg struggle to get new pilots. You must admit all the new pg pilots will scew the stats some.
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f I die HG-ing, its because of a mistake I MADE.
I think that is a dangerous attitude. Every flying machine has limitations, even a 747 can't survive a thunderstorm ( a pg can, but that is for a different thread). The point is as a pilot one of your biggest responsibilities is to study the weather and make constant go-no go decisions. In comparison to all aviation, the safe flight margin for a pg is only slightly narrower than a hg, both of which are significantly narrower than say a sailplane.
There are plenty of sailplane pilots that would never climb into a hang glider because they think its a death trap, they are afraid of hg for the exact reasons you are afraid of pg. They even use the exact same arguments, especially regarding turbulence. They don't realize that a hang glider can be flown safely if you stay in limitations, its just that those limitations are narrower than the sailplanes. Isn't it silly?
A paraglider does not collapse with a random puff of wind. It takes an acceleration downwards quicker than gravity to collapse a weighted wing. (Interestingly enough, this same downward force that is faster than gravity will render any weight shift plane useless). Most collapses are very mild and don't even cause a turn. Most paragliders will recover quickly on their own. The ones that don't are comp gliders that are sometimes even tuned out of factory spec, sound familiar? The conditions that cause collapses are not random. Just like how you can predict conditions that will nearly eliminate a chance of a tuck or tumble, you can do the same for collapses. I have flown pg for a few years with many satisfying flights lasting hours and have never experienced one single collapse that I did not induce on purpose (over the lake).
The bottom line is pg can be as safe or as dangerous as you make it. Its no different than hang gliding. If you are safe and smart pilot you have a higher chance of dying in a car on the retrieve. Deep down YOU ALREADY KNOW ALL OF THIS. The whole argument is pointless because you already know and understand both sides... But you are like most pg haters and put it down because you don't want to admit to yourself that hg can be pretty dangerous too.
I agree with the safety side of it. Coming from para to hang has been awesome. When it starts to get rowdy there is no worries of collapse, and whether or not this one will cravat or easily pump out. Yeah you can get hurt doing either one, but a rogue piece of air can not cravat a hang to the point of not flying. I still fly both and will continue to do so. I just feel safer flying my hang glider. Mind you all this is only "my" opinion.
In strong thermal conditions you are safer in a sailplane than in a hang glider, and in a hang glider than in a paraglider. This doesn't mean the paraglider or hang glider is less safe, it simply means the window for operating them safely is narrower. You are smart to put the pg away when it gets rowdy, but isn't it nice for those days when its not too rowdy?
Soon enough you may discover air that makes you worry even in your hang glider.
I agree with the safety side of it. Coming from para to hang has been awesome. When it starts to get rowdy there is no worries of collapse, and whether or not this one will cravat or easily pump out. Yeah you can get hurt doing either one, but a rogue piece of air can not cravat a hang to the point of not flying. I still fly both and will continue to do so. I just feel safer flying my hang glider. Mind you all this is only "my" opinion.
In strong thermal conditions you are safer in a sailplane than in a hang glider, and in a hang glider than in a paraglider. This doesn't mean the paraglider or hang glider is less safe, it simply means the window for operating them safely is narrower. You are smart to put the pg away when it gets rowdy, but isn't it nice for those days when its not too rowdy?
Soon enough you may discover air that makes you worry even in your hang glider.
Trust me, I have had air in the hang that has made me s*** my pants. I did say it was "my opinion" I am not saying one is safer so to speak, rather then with a hang glider over all I have a less stress "feeling" flight. They both have pros & cons. I did say you can get hurt doing either one. But for me, now... I "feel" safer in a hang. Whether it is or not........ ???
Again... only "my opinion".
Mike
Last edited by Wonder Boy on Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Your stats don't take into account how many active pilots there are, or how many people are flying without USHPA.
And? Those are real numbers. Unless you can come up with some real numbers for those non-ushpa pilots or whatever, we have a case of hard numbers versus an unsupported opinion.
The stats show your assertion is wrong. Provide counter stats or accept the fact that there are not way more PG pilots than HG pilots.
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Every where I have seen mountain soaring I have seen ACTIVE pg pilots out number hg at least 10 to one. The exception is flat states where areotow rules, and probably always will.
So flat states dont count now???
Anecdotal evidence doesnt carry a whole lotta weight, especially when its from a single persons point of view. A person who lives at Lookout Mountain would tell you HG's dominate, and PG's are quite rare. So what. The numbers already show your statement is false.
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f I die HG-ing, its because of a mistake I MADE.
I think that is a dangerous attitude.
Really? So its someone else's fault? Not my judgement error? Not my mistake? I think thats the perfect attitude all pilots should have. There is nothing dangerous about it.
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Every flying machine has limitations, even a 747 can't survive a thunderstorm ( a pg can, but that is for a different thread). The point is as a pilot one of your biggest responsibilities is to study the weather and make constant go-no go decisions. In comparison to all aviation, the safe flight margin for a pg is only slightly narrower than a hg, both of which are significantly narrower than say a sailplane.
This is just spin, plain and simple. Jet airplanes, Sailplanes, HG, PG's all have their flying envelope, but the difference is, only one will sometimes completely fold up and stop being a wing when it hits some turbulence within its flight envelope.
Or are you saying that ALL pg's that experience a collapse were flying in conditions outside their envelope? (that would be just about all PG mountain pilots, sooner or later)
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There are plenty of sailplane pilots that would never climb into a hang glider because they think its a death trap, they are afraid of hg for the exact reasons you are afraid of pg. They even use the exact same arguments, especially regarding turbulence. They don't realize that a hang glider can be flown safely if you stay in limitations, its just that those limitations are narrower than the sailplanes. Isn't it silly?
Unless you want to claim PG's are not thermal aircraft, then the analogy fails. Sailplanes and HG's dont collapse when flying within their flight envelopes.
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A paraglider does not collapse with a random puff of wind. It takes an acceleration downwards quicker than gravity to collapse a weighted wing. (Interestingly enough, this same downward force that is faster than gravity will render any weight shift plane useless). Most collapses are very mild and don't even cause a turn.
So you admit some collapses aren't mild.
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Most paragliders will recover quickly on their own.
So you admit some paragliders wont recover quickly. If near the ground = SPLAT
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The ones that don't are comp gliders that are sometimes even tuned out of factory spec, sound familiar? The conditions that cause collapses are not random.
Nope, weather, wind, gusts, thermals can in fact be quite random.
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Just like how you can predict conditions that will nearly eliminate a chance of a tuck or tumble, you can do the same for collapses. I have flown pg for a few years with many satisfying flights lasting hours and have never experienced one single collapse that I did not induce on purpose (over the lake).
You can lesson the probability, but weather prediction is not 100% and never will be. You will experience a nice collapse in the future if you keep flying, its simple probability. Care to explain why PG deployments are so common that PG pilots consider them no big deal and a fact of life in a PG? Ive seen this attitude plenty of times. Why is that???? Because collapses are part of flying a PG. Ive read PG comp pilots where guys take 10? collapses an HOUR.
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The bottom line is pg can be as safe or as dangerous as you make it. Its no different than hang gliding.
No, actually it is different. HG's dont fold up. How many times can you dodge the obvious? I agree both can be safer or more dangerous based on your decisions, but you only have to worry about collapses on one wing type.
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If you are safe and smart pilot you have a higher chance of dying in a car on the retrieve.
You really need to stop spreading nonsense like this. That is absolutely false and a free-soaring myth that really needs to be put to rest.
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Deep down YOU ALREADY KNOW ALL OF THIS. The whole argument is pointless because you already know and understand both sides... But you are like most pg haters and put it down because you don't want to admit to yourself that hg can be pretty dangerous too.
Did I ever say HG is dangerous or not dangerous??? No I didnt.
PG hater??? This is the end of the discussion if you are going to do the equivalent of pulling the race card. Im really tired of PG pilots who immediately start playing the victim and labelling everyone a PG -hater when someone points out the obvious and states their opinion.
I dont hate pg pilots and I certainly dont hate inanimate objects.
I simply enjoy and prefer, flying a wing with one less worry and a whole lot more glide, speed and wind penetration.
Name calling is against the rules of this forum and if youre going to start calling people pg-haters, because they state their opinion, then you can take this elsewhere, because im really sick of the whole victim thing, its really really old.
You said you thought I had a dangerous attitude because I thought that if I die in a hang glider it was because of MY mistake.
I think the real dangerous attitude here is being in denial that PG collapses are a very real danger you have to accept when flying a PG. Do PG pilots go to clinics to learn how to react to a NON-COLLAPSE over water???? Come on. Your sugar coating and spin is out of control here. You havent experienced a big collapse in the few years you have been flying them and it seems to have lulled you into complacency.
You only have to look at the USHPA accident statistics to immediately see that collapses are A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF PG ACCIDENTS.
They try to hide it with a cute label, but we all know what an in air "issue" is with a PG. I forget their exact terminology, but its pretty funny. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Last edited by sg on Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
When do accidents occur in a PG? Check out the phase of flight graph
Most occur *IN FLIGHT* - gee - I wonder what THAT could be??? USHPA hasnt published that category for HG's
Can we put this too rest now?
PG's collapse - I mean, they have "in flight" issues
Their "in flight" issues are the LARGEST cause of all their accidents, even ABOVE aerobatics! Twice as large as aerobatic accidents! Wow.
Next person who even mentions the word "tumble" is going to make me start screaming "HG-hater! HG-hater!!!"
' _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Wow I don't even feel like putting much more effort into this. Its difficult arguing with people so closed minded. You pick my post apart taking things out of context but completely miss the point. I just wish people like you would take a step back and look at the big picture. If we outlawed everything that is considered dangerous by your narrow minded definition, then hang gliding would be long gone because it used to have a terrible safety rating.
Collapse collapse collapse, gag... your argument is boring and shows that you have very little experience in what you are talking about. Collapses just aren't as big of a deal as you would like them to be. And throwing the reserve is not considered a normal part of life, are you even being serious with that comment!? If you want to really argue about paragliding I think you should stop watching youtube and go take a lesson.
Compared to the 'average' person, you are participating in a dangerous sport, and talking trash about another sport that is dangerous. Are you starting to see how this is hypocritical?
BTW give the victim thing a rest, nobody is playing the victim. I fly it all, and don't care what others think or fly. I called you a pg hater because you obviously have some personal issues with the idea of paragliding. I don't know why you are so afraid of it but I suspect it has to do with your own struggles with the dangers of hang gliding.
I think this dead horse has had enough, so I'll move on and let you think whatever you want to think. Besides, the pg sites around here are getting pretty crowded, its not like I'm trying to convert more pilots.
Wow I don't even feel like putting much more effort into this. Its difficult arguing with people so closed minded. You pick my post apart taking things out of context but completely miss the point. I just wish people like you would take a step back and look at the big picture. If we outlawed everything that is considered dangerous by your narrow minded definition, then hang gliding would be long gone because it used to have a terrible safety rating.
What does the above last sentence have to do with anything were talking about here? Im merely pointing out that there is one very clear difference about PG's which is why I dont fly them and you keep trying to muddy the waters by starting 20 different arguments.
You couldnt counter my evidence so you have to attempt to label me as closeminded. Great. The only person who is close minded here is the person who continues to believe what you state while blatantly ignoring that statistical evidence that goes directly counter to your reality. Not only do PG's collapse, they collapse often enough to be the #1 cause of PG accidents. Continue to deny if you wish.
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Collapse collapse collapse, gag... your argument is boring and shows that you have very little experience in what you are talking about.
Stick head in sand... stick head in sand... stick head in sand... GAG....
Boring and factual. Playing it off like its no big deal doesnt change a thing. For the record, ive flown paragliders and experience isnt even required to read a statistical chart to see the blatant truth which you continue to try to avoid.
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Collapses just aren't as big of a deal as you would like them to be.
Reality disagrees with you. (See chart for #1 reason of PG accidents)
Youre simply wrong and continue to deny it.
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And throwing the reserve is not considered a normal part of life, are you even being serious with that comment!? If you want to really argue about paragliding I think you should stop watching youtube and go take a lesson.
Ive taken lessons, ive flown them, and im simply re-iterating the attitude ive seen from SOME pg pilots about reserves...phhhht no biggie
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Compared to the 'average' person, you are participating in a dangerous sport, and talking trash about another sport that is dangerous. Are you starting to see how this is hypocritical?
There you go again playing the victim. Who's talking trash???
Where did I talk trash??? QUOTE ME. Pointing out the statistical record on PG accidents is not talking trash, sorry. Stating facts is not talk trashing. If you are going to react to everything I say by claiming im talking trash or a PG-hater, then there clearly is no point in attempting to have any kind of conversation with a super-victim.
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BTW give the victim thing a rest, nobody is playing the victim. I fly it all, and don't care what others think or fly. I called you a pg hater because you obviously have some personal issues with the idea of paragliding. I don't know why you are so afraid of it but I suspect it has to do with your own struggles with the dangers of hang gliding.
And now you are playing pop-psychologist too??? I have no personal issues with paragliding and im well aware of the dangers of hanggliding, thank you very much.
I cant give the victim thing a rest because you constantly continue to use it. Again, I dont hate PG's, that would be silly. You can accept that or call me a liar at which point ill tell you leave. I never said hanggliding WASNT dangerous so stop pretending I did. I only pointed out a major issue with PG's and you extrapolated that to all kinds of nonsense I never uttered.
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I think this dead horse has had enough, so I'll move on and let you think whatever you want to think. Besides, the pg sites around here are getting pretty crowded, its not like I'm trying to convert more pilots.
Indeed, the PG ignorance horse has been dead a long time. PG collapses are a serious issue that should not be taken lightly be their pilots. Anyone telling you otherwise is delusional.
In summary.......
1) I provided proof that there are NOT way more PG pilots than HG pilots, therefore not explaining the PG accident rate. You failed to counter with any facts.
2) I provided accident statistics that show PG's have major issues "in flight" directly contradicting your assertion that collapses are not a big deal.
PG pilots can continue to stick their heads in the sand, down play, and sugar coat all day, but the facts speak for themselves. The rest is mere unsupported opinion. Claiming pg-hate and trash talking when non-occurred doesnt help your case and I find it offensive.
The PG propaganda needs to end. I dont understand why PG pilots cant simply say it as it is. Collapses are a part of PG life, the numbers clearly support this, end of story. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
My issue isn't with all of your stats or charts. I couldn't care less.
The issue I have is when people spread misinformation. Sorry I don't have time to re-read all the posts and make neat little quotes, but some of the things that have been said are simply not true.
The comments like: at least if I crash a hg I know it was my fault (implying the opposite for pg), and how any random gust of wind can make a pg collapse are simply not true.
Collapses are dangerous and a problem for pg's. However they are predictable and easy to avoid. This whole attitude (that you are spreading) that collapses are like invisible dragons out there killing pg pilots is ridiculous. The ones getting hurt are almost always the ones pushing the limits in some way, just like in hg. However there are a lot more people pushing the limits in pg, if you really need numbers to prove that just look at contest turnouts.
The comments like: at least if I crash a hg I know it was my fault (implying the opposite for pg), and how any random gust of wind can make a pg collapse are simply not true.
No, not ANY random gust can make them collapse, but A random gust can make it collapse. That cant be denied.
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Collapses are dangerous and a problem for pg's. However they are predictable and easy to avoid.
If that were actually the case, there wouldnt be a category called "in flight" describing the phase of flight when a PG accident occurred, which is the category with the highest number of accidents.
If that were the case, PG pilots would not go to clinics over water to learn about collapses and how to recover from them.
This is simply denial and PG propaganda. It's careless to spread the idea that collapses are not a big deal.
You said:
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The issue I have is when people spread misinformation.
Then I would suggest that you stop spreading misinformation that can get PG pilots killed.
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This whole attitude (that you are spreading) that collapses are like invisible dragons out there killing pg pilots is ridiculous. The ones getting hurt are almost always the ones pushing the limits in some way, just like in hg. However there are a lot more people pushing the limits in pg, if you really need numbers to prove that just look at contest turnouts.
No, what is ridiculous is that you keep sticking your head in the sand when ive already presented the facts. Collapses are at the top of the list of causes of PG accidents. Which part of that dont you get?
You can make excuses all day long, but it doesnt change the facts.
I saved a PG pilots life by watching him take a collapse and plummet to the ground. I was the only person who saw him collapse and fall behind a hill hidden from view, and 911 was dialed and his life saved.
Was that just my imagination??? Collapses happen and injure people many times a year. This isnt la la land, it happens and it does in fact kill people. Go read the fatality reports if you dont believe me. _________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Come on. Your sugar coating and spin is out of control here. You havent experienced a big collapse in the few years you have been 
If you want to really argue about paragliding I think you should stop watching youtube and go take a lesson.