so i havent heard what exactly will go wrong out of anyone.. the weather wasnt bad and we had the whole lockout thing covered, granted our equip is old but it held up, is that what we were lucky about?
jbaloh wrote:
I cant seem to get it not to want to nose up, while towing even with the bar as far down as i can push it it will climb, then i release and it nearly stalls
Are you completely convinced you "had the whole lockout thing covered"? Just so you know, you didn't, releases notwithstanding (did you set up a weaklink?). With proper instruction you'll learn why. And where trim should be.
As far as the weather goes, yup it looked good...for soaring. Nice thermic looking sky above you. This isn't good for what you were doing.
And yes, you were very lucky that glider didn't become a lawn dart, given it's configuration.
so i havent heard what exactly will go wrong out of anyone.. the weather wasnt bad and we had the whole lockout thing covered, granted our equip is old but it held up, is that what we were lucky about?
I don't have the patience some do here. YOU are a fool, I sincerly hope your ego doesn't get you or worse your flying buddy killed. Most everyone in this forum knows someone who has been killed or seriously injured flying. We had a death at my local flying site just a few months ago and this was a pilot of 20 years not 20 tows. You may tow that glider safely 99 times out of a 100 and then on the 100th your buddy piles in, we are all trying to tell you that those are odds you can't accept. I'm not trying to get you to stop flying, but this sport has to be about minimizing the incredible risk that we all take to do what we love.
One of the most popular posters in this forum, an incredible pilot just gifted with all kind of skills on any glider recently had a horrific crash off of tow. He's a hang 4 pilot with hundreds of hours, broke a weak link, looked to be recovering to land no problem and then rotor slammed him face first in the blink of an eye. You need the proper training or you will get hurt, maybe not in 50 tows but somewhere your luck will run out. The proper training and equipment will let you maximize the odds to be in your favor.
The most important skill a hangglider pilot can have is knowing when not to fly. This one you need to work on.
Congratulations! you have obviously done well to get this far. No one here do you need to consider as a parent or the police or some other type of fun police and authority you need to second guess or defend yourself against, all the advice you have recieved is not trying to stop you from flying rather try to point you to the SHORTEST ROUTE to get flying high, safely and well.
Try these gliders:
Moyes Mission
Falcon 170 or 190
Fun 160 or 190
Sonic 160 or 190
If you must get a higher performance wing a Moyes XT is a good choice to start with.
FWIW my first glider was a HP wing of its day, thinking along the same lines as you, this does not mean (it simply does not help you in any way, in fact it is a disadvantge) you will fly higher, further or better, it means it WILL TAKE LONGER before develop the feel and the skills to utilise its potential. When I finally worked this out myself - after disregardign all those who had already told me - I went back to the most basic of gliders (Moyes Sonic 190) my airtime increased 100% and I flew 70 miles a few weeks later. Not hard to realise I had wasted time and money thinking I knew better.
Get lessons -maybe a group discount if you have a few mates along - use the schools gliders, when you are signed off, pick a glider then to suit.
Seriously I admire your motivation, no doubt you have had a great time with your friends so far, but realise that you are actually taking the slower (if you are impatient, why do that?) and less safer route - if you continue on your path to hang gliding you will one day realise that there is a great deal of ignorance in the thought that you had lock outs covered, hence the disbelief and lack of credibility you seem to have received, as has been said - no one does, never really will, statements like that only show people here that you do not understand what you are talking about. Lock outs are a CONTINUAL inherent risk in towing. Any form of towing.
Insipient lock out? What is it? What are your actions? Did you know the shorter the rope the faster they progress? Did you know weak links don't help with lock outs?
Try to forget about buying your own glider at the start - if you are going to break something, do it on a schools glider it will end up cheaper, what's that they say about the forest and the trees. Listen up and you will see the forest, the trees and be able to identify all the species with in, a veratible arborist.
SAFE SKIES! Go get 'em. _________________ TEX
"Love the lift you're with."
Don't be a passenger.
DUSTY!
Last edited by Tex on Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
I can understand figuring this out on your own if you're in the middle of nowhere, but you're 15 miles from a well established and respected school. 15 MILES!!!!
Anyway, here's a video I really like of a guy who bought himself a new aviation toy and tried to fly it with no lessons.
Damn I hate that video. Once perfectly good, great little helicopter GOONNE! I would have have paid him twice what he got for it after the flight, before the flight. _________________ TEX
"Love the lift you're with."
Don't be a passenger.
DUSTY!
so i havent heard what exactly will go wrong out of anyone.. the weather wasnt bad and we had the whole lockout thing covered, granted our equip is old but it held up, is that what we were lucky about?
jbaloh,
Man, there are HUNDREDS if not thousands of tow instructors and tow pilots who WANT to know how you did that ! ! !
PLEASE let all of us dummies know, because towing lockouts are all too common, and we really need to learn how to avoid these disasters!
Okay,
The glider can lock out (No problem for you,though. Ya GOTTA tell us how!)
The old glider can break something (not when you're LUCKY, though).
With no dive recovery system, the glider can stall, then dive steeper than the pilot can recover from, without a working Dive Recovery System to help. (The sky does not accept excuses, like "I didn't know...)
The tow rope can break.
The tow release can fail to release. (No hook knife? No LinkKnife? NO excuses!) You will have a tow-rope radius dive, into the dirt.
The tow vehicle can malfunction, seize the engine, or otherwise stop, and again you will have a tow-rope radius dive into the dirt. Running out of gas can be a death-penalty offense -for the PILOT!
The glider can lift and flip the tow vehicle, especially when the glider hits lifting air (dust devil) and again, you will have a tow-rope radius dive into the dirt. Of course, the extra load of lifting the tow vehicle could break the glider at altitude, also.
The tow driver can have a medical malfunction (wasp in the eye, et c.).
And I'm sure the pilots here can add many more. We are not keeping secrets, really, but the list is kinda long...
actually we stalled the glider to nothing and it recovers fine, tested that on the hill with little altitude, granted it could have broken.
lockout wasnt an issue, there was no wind nor did we climb at such a rate to cause it, all the others u talk about are problems with the tow line letting go or viehicle stoping, also not a problem because of the slow climb and relaxed angle of attack we were climbing, i could have released at ANY point during our tow.... so no im not keeping secrets nor do i claim to be an expert, just smart enough to stay out of trouble since its something im new to,.
so i havent heard what exactly will go wrong out of anyone.. the weather wasnt bad and we had the whole lockout thing covered, granted our equip is old but it held up, is that what we were lucky about?
jbaloh wrote:
I cant seem to get it not to want to nose up, while towing even with the bar as far down as i can push it it will climb, then i release and it nearly stalls
Are you completely convinced you "had the whole lockout thing covered"? Just so you know, you didn't, releases notwithstanding (did you set up a weaklink?). With proper instruction you'll learn why. And where trim should be.
As far as the weather goes, yup it looked good...for soaring. Nice thermic looking sky above you. This isn't good for what you were doing.
And yes, you were very lucky that glider didn't become a lawn dart, given it's configuration.
yes actually if u read back we were using a weak link... actually less than they use normally, and had it fail tons of times, but i would rather than then have it not break when we needed it.
One last thing, since we can argue all day... Im not some cocky kid nor saying i dont need help learning... If you read the whole beginning i dont repel anyone who says i need training, i only defended what we did previous as not as dangerous as everyone telling me i could have died said it should be. We took all the necessary steps to avoid what we found could be complications. While being new to hang gliders, Flying has been my life since i was a child and more so since i got out of school. I wont even go into what i do for a living... But the bottom line is, Yes i have a great instructor and amazing park 10 minutes away. And yes be jealous because i WILL go there and fly with those guys, However i WILL also get a glider, most likely a falcon used and fly it on my own with some sort of tow rig. When i use the tow rig, it will probably be on a calm day with little wind after an extensive preflight on a wing that i know and touch everyday. on a rig that is also mine with someone i know is as smart as me on the tow vehicle.
As of right now this thread is too long to continue arguing with people who wont read nor understand what it was about. I hope you enjoyed the video, it kind of made us feel like flying a bit of history!
ps anyone want it? It truely is in amazing shape for its age. id love to get the reflexors for it.
I have read all of the posts in this thread and I do not see any arguments all I see is experienced people trying to save you killing yourself or worse killing your mate.
Hopefully they have succeeded and you put your ego to one side and get some training and have the opportunity to experience some real flying. Unfortunately my guess is that you have always done things your way and you will do what you will do. I just pray that you are the only one affected by your decisions. _________________ Sonic 165
Lightsport 3
Malibu 188
My youtube channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2#p/u
And yes be jealous because i WILL go there and fly with those guys.
Nah! I not jealous of that. I flew at Ellenville today and picked blueberries on launch afterwards.
However, you may want to rethink your approach. You are quickly wearing out your welcome with some great people. _________________ Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
Charles Lindbergh
Come on man. you sound like a total ass. Your telling these guys about the characteristics of the glider you couldn't even identify. It's a scary, none airworthy P.O.S. similar to you at this point in your flying. You say you'll be flying with the locals (some how we are supposed to be jealous ) but I be surprised if they would have you unless your rated or working with an instructor. You would be a liability to their site. Even your girl friend didn't think it was going to work. she is right, it WON'T work the way your going about it. Do us and mostly your self a favor and STOP self training!!!! _________________ SKY PIMP
http://vimeo.com/user942728/videos
jbaloh-
Hang in there man and don't get impatient.
Your SeaGull is a classic. When you get your Falcon and some training, use your SeaGull in the LZ as a shade for the beer garden, we'll meet you there.
Everytime your wing completes a full flight, takeoff & landing, that's considered
a cycle. A cycle promotes stress on every component, wires and aluminum
tubing especially.
Towing increases that stress 100 fold. The Gull was not intended to be towed but as a foot launch trainer / recreational wing.
I'm affraid if that is still the original tubing in your Gull, then eventually something is going to give.
I like your motivation for the sport, keep it up. Just be very very careful and wise
with your choices. _________________ H-4 (1976) UP Saturn 147 & UP Axis 13
The Cloudbase Foundation
Learn to fly hang gliders (click here}
Torrey Hawks #208
I like to XC ski. I use old equipment that I got out of the bargain bin, and I don't bother to wax other than to use the liquid stuff that you put on with a sponge applicator, and I've never taken a lesson. And the XC skiers all turn up their noses at my outdated gear, and act like I'm committing some crime by using it. And maybe my form isn't as perfect as theirs, but I get around the trails just fine, and I'm using equipment that was considered to be perfectly good a few years ago. I really think that a lot of what's going on is that they have invested a bunch of cash to get the latest and greatest, and in order to justify this expenditure they have to convince themselves that anything else is completely horrible, and they therefore can't stand the fact that I'm doing fine by using old stuff and teaching myself. I have no intention of changing what I'm doing.
And I can see that you have the same rugged individualist attitude toward hang gliding. That's great. Except that when you use crappy skis and don't really know what you're doing, you go slow. And when you use a crappy hang glider and don't really know what you're doing, you get killed. _________________ H4 + various skills (only foot-launch so far)
WW UltraSport 147, WW Falcon2 170, PacAir Vision Mark IV 17
My HG wiki profile and my flying blog
One last thing, since we can argue all day... Im not some cocky kid nor saying i dont need help learning... If you read the whole beginning i dont repel anyone who says i need training, i only defended what we did previous as not as dangerous as everyone telling me i could have died said it should be. We took all the necessary steps to avoid what we found could be complications. While being new to hang gliders, Flying has been my life since i was a child and more so since i got out of school. I wont even go into what i do for a living... But the bottom line is, Yes i have a great instructor and amazing park 10 minutes away. And yes be jealous because i WILL go there and fly with those guys, However i WILL also get a glider, most likely a falcon used and fly it on my own with some sort of tow rig. When i use the tow rig, it will probably be on a calm day with little wind after an extensive preflight on a wing that i know and touch everyday. on a rig that is also mine with someone i know is as smart as me on the tow vehicle.
As of right now this thread is too long to continue arguing with people who wont read nor understand what it was about. I hope you enjoyed the video, it kind of made us feel like flying a bit of history!
ps anyone want it? It truely is in amazing shape for its age. id love to get the reflexors for it.
sorry guy, you still don't get it, it seems. We do all understand what the thread is about. You continue to prove you haven't a clue what you are talking about. As smart as you, indeed. I'd suggest renaming the thread to "Dead man walking".
Thanks for the chuckle, though. Glad you tested the dive recovery with a stall on a training hill. Yup, no luff dive there, and with that lockout thing not an issue for you, hell you got releases and a weaklink even, what could possibly go wrong?! yer good to go!
Looks like you got the weather thing covered too, by only towing on a "calm day with little wind". Add in "blue sky, cloudless day" and that describes the day I hit the strongest thermal of my HG career, at over 3000fpm. I'm sure that's nothing to you, but it sure scared the hell outta me.
I can only hope you are true to your word and seek out the good folks at Cloud Nine, and that they can set you straight. If they can't, I can guarantee you won't be flying with them at their site.
It's obvious you are only looking to hear what you want to hear.
holly crap some of you guys are coming of harsh and sound like total D-bags. Take a chill pill. Calling this guy a "fool" or "dead man walking"? What the F mates? Are we trying to encourage people to join our community or putting out the image that we are all arrogant A-holes. Some of you guys need a serious PR check.
jbaloh, assuming your not just trolling for gags (not sure if you are or not) ditto to what the others (the non-D-Baggy-ones) have been saying about getting training, especially if your so close to a flight school. Something everyone has failed to mention (too caught up in "OMFG YOU MORON YOUR GONNA DIE" talk I guess) is how fun and exciting the training is. All that flying you have already done, you get to do on your first day at the bunny hill. The only way to learn to fly hang gliders is to, well, fly hang gliders. Some instructors do a little ground schooling, but I pretty sure most students spend 99% of their training time flying. Heck I flew 6 times of the 85 ft training hill we have out here yesterday at it was a blast.
This is such a fun and exciting sport and the best/fastest way to experience it is though proper training. A qualified instructor will get you flying much faster and safer than you would on your own.
Ultimately the decision is yours to seek instruction or not. I strongly encourage you to go over to cloud 9 and take lessons. But if you choose not to, please proceed with caution, especially in towing. That can get pretty scary.
As KK said, we are concerned with your safety, but we also care about the reputation of our sport. Its a reputation that is probably skewed in the eyes of the general public as being super dangerous and just crazy. This is far from the case and every time a hang glider goes down and it makes the news, the negative reputation is reinforced. I guess what I am trying to say is that if you crash, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T MAKE THE EVENING NEWS!
ps. I grew up in Lansing MI, moved to California in 1999, and I really want to make a trip back to fly at cloud 9 and the sand dunes up north on Lake Michigan. I would love to fly there with ya someday. _________________ -Dave
http://www.designbydave.net/
I started on a Gyro II. The billow was so big it looked like a cross between a parachute and a hang glider. It glided like a brick,
and I loved it!
And I would have been happy to keep on flying it forever but after 100 hours a few local pilots started encouraging me to upgrade to something more advanced. I held off a bit longer until my instructor told me I was out flying my glider and I needed to upgrade. Like all good instructors mine was regarded in very high esteem so I took his advice and bought a Foil 160B. Same thing for that next glider, I was outflying it long before I moved onto the next higher performance glider.
Apart from the odd downtube I have never damaged a glider, never broken a bone or sustained an injury and I attribute this predominantly to the fact I was never in a rush to upgrade. I probably have over 6000hrs of flying.
Now and then after I have been up flying around in my topless (maybe doing a few aerobatics ) a student will ask me what I think is the best glider. Its obvious they're expecting me to mention the latest high performance design so when I point to their trainer (usually an Airborne Fun) they are not sure if I am being serious. All things considered the intro gliders (the Fun, WW Falcon, Moyes Malibu..) are the best, the most fun, easiest, lowest maintenance, lightest to carry, quickest to transport. You can land those things on a postage stamp. Intro gliders lay the foundation for impeccable launch/landing technique. The intro gliders hardwire the fundamental skills that allow you to fly trouble free in advanced gliders years down the track. The amount of fun you have while flying is more about the piloting and less about the glider.
This thread has touched on two of the most important pieces of advice i.e. don't be in a rush to upgrade, and, having an instructor and a network of pilots you can derive guidance from (whether you ask for it or not) is priceless. _________________ A ship in harbour is safe.
Last edited by AP on Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Great to hear your gonna seek support from Tracy. From your vids, it looks like you have abillities. I feel Tracy can help refine your approach and understanding of flying hgs with more detail. It shouldn't take you long to safely move up the ranks. You have to trust, there are veteran pilots here. Who have busted their balls. So others don't have to.
Have a great time becoming a hg pilot. Hope to see more of your posts and enthusiasm here in the near and distant future.
have fun fly safe (knowledge helps for both to happen). _________________ The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit!
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it will end up cheaper, what's that they say about the forest and the trees. Listen up and you will see the forest, the trees and be able to identify all the species with in, a veratible arborist.
