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GTPilot
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 90
Location: California
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CHassan
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 4594
Location: Ohio
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 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
 #2 |
I have a Charlie Insider. Alot of the guys around here have them. I have mine because it was part of a package deal.
It has a fair amount of wind noise coming from the padding set up, but a small pc of tape takes care of that. |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
#3 |
Ive had my icaro for years. Its held together well.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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EWDesire
1 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 160
Location: Osnabrück, Germany
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: |
#5 |
Which version? There are 3 now.
I seem to remember when they first came out, they were not as strong as a regular helmet. I could be wrong. But now all of their helmets pass the same certification process.
I think the speculation is just that. You just as easily could speculate that the long tail would prevent your head from getting snapped backwards in a head on crash.
Here are the 3 versions.
4Fight LT Integral (long tail)
4Fight LT Jet with visor
4Fight Cut - if the tail worries you
| EWDesire wrote: |
| What about the Icaro 4Fight? It looks so damn cool and my girl-friend said she might consider getting it as a christmas present for me but I am not 100 % sure cauz I heard people speculating about possible neck / spine injuries in crashes from the long tail. Anyone knows anything bout that? |
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
Last edited by sg on Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EWDesire
1 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 160
Location: Osnabrück, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
#6 |
Guess you're right sg, the integral long tail is very popular with hg pilots over here and the rumour was spread by two guys who don't have one. Especially with the carbon fibre visible (the version you posted) it looks soooo sharp and hot, much better than the painted versions. Of course Icaro knows the marketing business very well, what with all the nice pics of these helmets and of the pilots wearing them in flight on their website - very seductive. Plus they offer a cool service: If you order a new helmet and it doesn't fit they will send you padding inlays to make it fit for free as an alternative to exchanging. I am also thinking about using the helmet for riding my bike because my old helmet is really worn out but I'm not sure it'll fullfill the cert. requirements for biking helmets and be as strong as these are.
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Dominik
Aeros Discus 14c
http://vimeo.com/user1867607/videos
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GreenGuyVT
Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 2
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: Five |
#7 |
| Five |
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remmoore
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:17 pm Post subject: |
#8 |
GT,
Why not broaden your options by looking at non-HG helmets? BMX, MX, and MC helmets offer a huge variety of options, typically constructed to a higher safety standard, and are nearly always less expensive that the flimsy stuff made for HG.
RM |
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AirNut
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Nov 2011
Posts: 148
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
#9 |
| remmoore wrote: |
GT,
Why not broaden your options by looking at non-HG helmets? BMX, MX, and MC helmets offer a huge variety of options, typically constructed to a higher safety standard, and are nearly always less expensive that the flimsy stuff made for HG.
RM |
 In days gone by, the big motorcycle helmet manufacturer, Bell, made a helmet specifically for hanggliding. It had full motorcycle construction but was cut away around the ears. And yes, it met the motorcycle helmet standards rather than the flimsy HG standards (a motorcycle helmet can absorb roughly triple the energy of a HG helmet certified to the current European standard). It was a very good compromise, but I don't know if they're around anymore.
So if strength and impact protection is your main concern, look outside the current crop of HG/PG helmets.
_________________
If God had wanted us to stay on the ground, he'd have given us roots.
SL195, Ranger2, Mega2, Stingray, Meteor 150, GT MIssile, Mars 170, Malibu 166 |
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SaschaN
3 thumbs up
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 57
Location: Southwest Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:01 am Post subject: |
#10 |
I usually don't read any manuals, but when I received my new Icaro 4fight helmet I had a short look and it explicitely says:
Not for biking, skiing (wearing while housekeeping may be ok  )
I don't know why, because many people seem to used those helmets for longboarding.
So when you don't want to buy 2 helmets it would be a better choice when using the MX helmet for flying.
_________________
http://www.vimeo.com/SaschaN |
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Roadrunner
2 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Posts: 371
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#11 |
Hi people,
This is the big Guy, on this helmet topic, I want to chime in, that what I have sad before: "You have not lived till you have had a Helmet NOT do it's job" Hang glider helmets are _not_ up to the task of protecting one's brain. I for one eagerly await the day when say helmet manufactures step up and offer a 2ned generation skull protection device.
OK, Goodbye. The Big Guy |
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gasdive
2 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 1161
Location: port macquarie australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#12 |
| Roadrunner wrote: |
| "You have not lived till you have had a Helmet NOT do it's job" |
Exactly. If the helmet had not done it's job, you would not have lived. Yes you were severely injured. Helmets are not there to protect you against injury, they're there to protect you against death.
Do you have even one scrap of actual evidence that you would have been better off in a motorcycle helmet? From what I understand from previous discussions with others your HG helmet was completely destroyed in the crash you had. It gave it's all to protect you and you lived. Would it have been a better result if you'd had a helmet that was strong enough to be used again afterwards but you were dead as a result?
=:)
_________________
Jason Rogers,
http://zerods.blogspot.com/
http://slow-cook.blogspot.com
http://thingsineverunderstood.blogspot.com/
Lock a diver in an empty room for an hour with three ball bearings. On your return, one will be lost, one will be broken and one will be stolen. |
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 3425
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
#13 |
All helmets work...some better than others. The real key and trick to helmets is...
Learn not to use them!
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The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit! |
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GerryP
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: |
#14 |
gasdive,
> Do you have even one scrap of actual evidence that you would
> have been better off in a motorcycle helmet?
There is plenty of evidence that motorcycle helmets offer more protection that the current HG helmets. You could start with certification testing. If you show a HG helmet to someone in motocross they laugh, and I view those crash scenarios as similar (speed and angle).
> If the helmet had not done it's job, you would not have lived.
So if I crash with a napkin wrap on my head and get hurt but live, the napkin did its job? Seriously, check your logic. I see someone with experience encouraging a look into HG safety, and I am certain our helmets can improve.
Gerry |
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remmoore
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#15 |
| gasdive wrote: |
| Roadrunner wrote: |
| "You have not lived till you have had a Helmet NOT do it's job" |
Exactly. If the helmet had not done it's job, you would not have lived. Yes you were severely injured. Helmets are not there to protect you against injury, they're there to protect you against death.
Do you have even one scrap of actual evidence that you would have been better off in a motorcycle helmet? From what I understand from previous discussions with others your HG helmet was completely destroyed in the crash you had. It gave it's all to protect you and you lived. Would it have been a better result if you'd had a helmet that was strong enough to be used again afterwards but you were dead as a result?
= |
Jason,
The better result would have been if Chris had required only minor medical attention. Instead, the experts thought he wouldn't live. With incredible support from his family, he was accepted into a rehab program, after the experts allowed that he would remain a vegetable.
I won't bother with the details of his long struggle back to normalcy - you've previously shown a lack of interest, despite the deep desire from some of us that no one have to share his fate.
The "scrap of evidence" you requested is this - the crushable foam inside his helmet was fully compressed. More foam (like provided in many other types of helmets) would likely have given his head the additional deceleration time needed for reduced injury.
His helmet - a Charley Insider - didn't protect him from an injury that none of us should shrug off as acceptable risk. Some of us have chosen to do something about it, and use helmets designed to a higher standard.
RM
Last edited by remmoore on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 3425
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#16 |
| gasdive wrote: |
| Roadrunner wrote: |
| "You have not lived till you have had a Helmet NOT do it's job" |
Exactly. If the helmet had not done it's job, you would not have lived. Yes you were severely injured. Helmets are not there to protect you against injury, they're there to protect you against death.
Do you have even one scrap of actual evidence that you would have been better off in a motorcycle helmet? From what I understand from previous discussions with others your HG helmet was completely destroyed in the crash you had. It gave it's all to protect you and you lived. Would it have been a better result if you'd had a helmet that was strong enough to be used again afterwards but you were dead as a result?
= |
Hello gasdive, and Happy holidays from up over... Roadrunner is a good friend of mine. The purpose of this topic is to discover helmets. Good ones or Bad.
Me personally. I would never recommend the helmet Big guy was wearing. Not even to my worse enemy.
You can all debate tits and tats till the cows or cats...come home. I prefer to better understand how not to have to use a helmet? And in the case (for reasons unkown) that a helmet comes into play during a flight. Make sure to pick a good one!
Cheers and Happy new Years!
_________________
The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit! |
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gasdive
2 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 1161
Location: port macquarie australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#17 |
| hgflyer wrote: |
Make sure to pick a good one!
|
That's the trick really.
I don't know the right helmet to use. However Remmore is happy to dispense his advice to all and sundry. He apparently knows more about this than the scientists who actually study this for a living and the people who put together certification standards.
I see this again and again. People have a strong gut feeling and that's far more important than doing any actual work.
Chris has one data point... One. If you've done *any* statistics or analysis or any kind of critical thought training you'd know the value of that one data point. There's a good reason why the formulae have the term n-1 in them...
He's come down on the side that the helmet didn't do the job. His basis for that is that he didn't like the result. Or, perhaps his "friends" are telling him that he's somehow to blame for his injury for being dumb enough to chose the helmet he did. Guilt, emotion, denial, fear. That's all I'm seeing in the helmet debate from these two.
It makes *exactly* as much sense to get down on his knees and thank the helmet builders who saved his life.
We *don't know* how much energy he impacted with. We *don't know* if he would have been better off with a different helmet.
There are good reasons to think he would have been better off with a M/C helmet, (thicker stronger liner and shell in a M/C helmets)
There are good reasons to think that he would have been worse off (thicker stronger liner and shell in M/C helmets)
Hey, look! They're the *same reasons*. How can that be?
Here's two of many possible senarios...
1) The soft helmet deformed at some large number of G which was just low enough to be on this side of the edge of survivablity. In doing so it completely compressed the foam and destroyed the helmet and in doing so saved the wearer's life by absorbing as much energy as possible. If he'd been wearing a stronger helmet in this particular crash the harder foam and harder shell would have transmitted slightly more energy to the wearer's head and he would have been dead.
2) The soft helmet deformed at some large number of G, absorbed as much energy as it possbily could and then when it ran out of energy absorbing ablity it passed what was left to the wearer, pushing him to the very edge of survivablity. If he'd been wearing a stronger helmet with a harder shell then more energy would have been absorbed and less transmitted to the wearer. The wearer's injuries would have been less (but still very substantial)
The M/C helmet promoters believe senario 2. However they have ***NO EVIDENCE*** that senario 1 isn't the actual situation.
Based on ignorance they're happy to push their idea (for the best of possible reasons).
I don't now and have never in the past thought that giving safety advice in the most authoritive manner that I've seen here, based on ignorance, was a good idea.
=:)
_________________
Jason Rogers,
http://zerods.blogspot.com/
http://slow-cook.blogspot.com
http://thingsineverunderstood.blogspot.com/
Lock a diver in an empty room for an hour with three ball bearings. On your return, one will be lost, one will be broken and one will be stolen. |
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hgflyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 3425
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#18 |
| gasdive wrote: |
| hgflyer wrote: |
Make sure to pick a good one!
|
Based on ignorance they're happy to push their idea (for the best of possible reasons).
I don't now and have never in the past thought that giving safety advice in the most authoritive manner that I've seen here, based on ignorance, was a good idea.
= |
Wow! well put and passionately thought out Jason. I feel the same way when I see a Mc Donalds commercial here in the states up over.
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The sky is no longer the limit! Only our imaginations will be our limit! |
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Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2183
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Wishing for Skull/Brain protection |
#19 |
You seem to be confusing the roles of the shell and the liner in helmets. The soft, crushable/deformable liner is what provides the impact absorption. The primary role of the shell is to prevent penetration and spread the impact to allow more of the liner to absorb it. A soft shell can allow too much of the impact energy to act on one small area which makes it much easier for the liner to be overwhelmed and then pass too much energy on to the skull. If you can squeeze the shell of a helmet together with your bare hands, like it's possible to do with some HG helmets, chances are that it will squeeze down just like that when faced with a significant impact. I'm sure that most pilots would prefer that their skull remain the same size and shape when the use of a helmet becomes necessary. A properly designed helmet should not just prevent death, it should also do as much as possible to prevent injury to the wearer.
JMO
| gasdive wrote: |
There are good reasons to think that he would have been worse off (thicker stronger liner and shell in M/C helmets)
|
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
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remmoore
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1311
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
#20 |
Jason,
Why all the focus on MC helmets? I've not seen anyone in this thread stating that MC helmets are the best solution.
In fact, this thread started by discussion options, including BMX, MX, and (yes) MC helmets. While I've personally chosen a MC helmet, I've been pushing for pilots consider any type of helmet that offers better protection than a HG helmet.
Take MX helmets for example. The types of impacts received by dirt-bike riders are quite similar to HG, but their helmets seem much more up to the task than the garden-variety HG helmet.
Even many BMX helmets are constructed to a higher standard than HG helmets - It doesn't take a scientific study to see that
"Or, perhaps his "friends" are telling him that he's somehow to blame for his injury for being dumb enough to chose the helmet he did. Guilt, emotion, denial, fear. That's all I'm seeing in the helmet debate from these two."
That's worse supposition than you claim from me, completely wrong, and way below the belt.
Also, please lay off the comments about helmets-so-strong-they-kill or reusing-the-helmet. No one is suggesting any helmet should be that strong or reusable. It seems as disingenuous as pilots who have posted pictures of ancient iron helmets. Such tactics make you seem as illogical as you claim me to be.
RM
Last edited by remmoore on Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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