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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #21   
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #22   
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #23   
jackass wrote:
slip slip sliding down the rabbit hole to crazy town...

I guess politics and hang gliding shouldn't mix. I'll bow out before it gets ugly.


You applied the crazy emote to gun owners and just described their position as crazy town. The only person even starting to make this ugly is you, with some subtle attacks. Sad

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dfurlano



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #24   
PilotGuy wrote:
You know, gun nuts love to claim that it's their guns that protect their rights when the government encroaches too much, but I'd like to see the day when the gun nuts out their actually start to open fire on the police and US military.

Hypothetical: How many of you gun lovers, if you came home and found your house being searched by police without a warrant, would have the balls to pick up your gun and start shooting in order to protect your civil rights, rather than just shrug and say "I guess I'll have to let the courts work it out." ?

Fact is, I'd love to see the constitution defended rather than destroyed, but where are my gun wielding fellow americans who are willing to fight for their rights? Their too busy screaming "Git dem terrurists!" to see who's lives are actually being affected.


I can't speak for the other 80+ million gun owners in the USA, but I will not willingly surrender my firearms like the gun owners in Australia and Great Britain meekly did in the 90s. The only thing that keeps a totalitarian police state at bay is an armed citizenry, and the fear that those armed citizens will rise against the state. That's why tyrannical regimes from the left and right political spectrums always seek to disarm the population as Priority #1.

Americans who think that a tyrannical state cannot possibly take hold here in the USA are either ignorant (unknowing), preoccupied, blind (metaphorically), or self-deceived.

Apathy always seems to rule (i.e. only about 20% of Americans were directly involved in the independence rebellion against Great Briatain), but I've made the conscious decision that the state will have to take my firearms "from my cold dead fingers." Call it armed civil disobedience. And I hardly qualify as a redneck with a 75 IQ.

Although it may initially take the lives of a number of victimized gun owners (possibly me too?), once the tyrannical state feels continued armed resistence (which is highly infectious in the population), they will fold like a cheap pack of cards and run for their own lives.

For an example of what moxy and a handful of cheap firearms and Molotov cocktails can do to a tyrannical state, I suggest research into the fall of Communism in Romania in the early 90s, or viewing the film "Uprising", based in WW2 Poland. Unfortunately, by the time that the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto decided on armed resistence, they were in a no-win situation. I don't intend on being in a similar situation.

While it is true that most Americans are currently asleep at the wheel, and willingly trade personal liberties for real, perceived, and contrived "threats", in the long run I believe that the sleeping giant will awaken if need be.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #25   
TomGalvin wrote:
sg wrote:
Strawman? I don't think they think like that in general. I would wager when the day comes that they actually start shooting at police/military, is when we are already in a nazi-germany scenario and the government has clearly become a fascist state. Revolution time, is when the shooting would start. THAT is the scenario I think the founders had in mind, when they formed the 2nd amendment as a fail safe, not the "lets just shoot a cop cuz I think he's violating my rights" scenario.


How many police were there, when the Constitution was written.


You mean the British? A lot.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #26   
Changed my hypocritical thread title

Self owned

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #27   
curly_cue wrote:
I can't see myself shooting a cop because he's on my property without a warrant. However if someone breaks into my home to rob me or hurt me, he will be in some serious trouble.


and the difference is?

the ruling is somewhat disappointing
however there is still something good
Quote:
Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a

firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for

traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Pp. 2-53.

(a) The Amendment's prefatory clause announces a purpose, but

does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative

clause. The operative clause's text and history demonstrate that it

connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2-22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court's interpretation

2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

Syllabus

of the operative clause. The "militia" comprised all males physically

capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists

feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in

order to disable this citizens' militia, enabling a politicized standing

army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress

power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear

arms, so that the ideal of a citizens' militia would be preserved.

Pp. 22-28.

(c) The Court's interpretation is confirmed by analogous armsbearing

rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately

followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28-30.

(d) The Second Amendment's drafting history, while of dubious

interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals

that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms.

Pp. 30-32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts

and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the

late 19th century also supports the Court's conclusion. Pp. 32-47.

(f) None of the Court's precedents forecloses the Court's interpretation.

Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553, nor

Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 264-265, refutes the individualrights

interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not

limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather

limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by

the militia
, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47-54.

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.

It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any

manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed

weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment

or state analogues. The Court's opinion should not be taken to cast

doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by

felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms

in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or

laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of

arms. Miller's holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those

"in common use at the time" finds support in the historical tradition

of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

Pp. 54-56.

3. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to

self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District's total ban

on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an

entire class of "arms" that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the

lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny

the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this

Cite as: 554 U. S. ____ (2008) 3

Syllabus

prohibition-in the place where the importance of the lawful defense

of self, family, and property is most acute-would fail constitutional

muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the

home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible

for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and

is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument

that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily

and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy

his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement.

Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment

rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and

must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56-64.



limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by

the militia,





(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.





So, they are saying I have the same rights to arms as the National Guard/Naval Militia, aka, M-16, bayonet lugs, flash supressors, sound supressors, etc

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Erik Boehm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #28   
Quote:
Hypothetical: How many of you gun lovers, if you came home and found your house being searched by police without a warrant, would have the balls to pick up your gun and start shooting in order to protect your civil rights, rather than just shrug and say "I guess I'll have to let the courts work it out." ?


Answering that question honestly could get someone on a government watch list, only an idiot would admit to such a thing unless things were already on the brink of a revolt, or they could go stealthy, like the DC sniper, except target cops instead of random civilians, one would obviously not stand up to the cops when they are at your home, and have taken your major guns already.

Quote:
If it ever got that bad I would move out of the country anyway because at that point America is not the country I was once so proud of.


I can relate to this, I can only hope I make it to Switzerland before things got that bad here, but things could go bad before one knows it, and one could find themselves stuck in this country with no easy way out

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #29   
Switzerland just passed a law to have all internet traffic go through the govt. for monitoring Shocked
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Erik Boehm
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #30   
eeeshhhhh...... maybe not then....

well... where else is there to go?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #31   
Careful what you ask for:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #32   
Erik Boehm wrote:
eeeshhhhh...... maybe not then....

well... where else is there to go?


Stand and fight dammit! Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #33   
I think people forget firearms are inanimate objects, and cant be evil on their own

This sign rules Laughing



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #34   
sg wrote:
Switzerland just passed a law to have all internet traffic go through the govt. for monitoring Shocked


If you're talking about the law that was passed 2 days ago, that was Sweden. If you're talking about something that happened previous to this week, my memory doesn't go back that far. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #35   
Jackass, let me tell you why guns in effect, are the maximum expression of freedom: The Second Amendment is more important than the first, because the true sign of a free citizenry is one where government recognizes that it shouldn't hold a monopoly on the use of force, and recognizes that individuals have the right to protect that which is most valuable: their lives and their property. Without guns, there would have been no American Revolution. It is because of their significance that the Framers wrote the second amendment. I don't even care about guns themselves. It's my freedom to have one if I so wish that's important.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #36   
PilotGuy wrote:
sg wrote:
Switzerland just passed a law to have all internet traffic go through the govt. for monitoring Shocked


If you're talking about the law that was passed 2 days ago, that was Sweden. If you're talking about something that happened previous to this week, my memory doesn't go back that far. Laughing


Ooops my bad, you are correct Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #37   
sweet, there may still be a bastion of liberty after this country goes down the crapper.

Stand and fight? would rather not make a commitment to do so on "the internets", as I may be awoke at 4:30 and find myself going to gitmo if I did.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #38   
I have no issues with people owning guns for hunting or self-defense, but I think there should be some limits on the weaponry that the ordinary citizens are allowed to own and I would prefer a country where Joe Knucklehead is not walking around in public packing heat.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #39   
sg wrote:
jackass wrote:
equating guns to freedom. Sad

How do you think the USA was founded?


That was then, this is now. The technology has changed. In the mid 1700s, a citizen army armed with rifles was an effective fighting force. Today, they would be cannon fodder. Any of the four branches of our armed services could put a bomb on your house today and you'd never even hear the aircraft that delivered it.

dfurlano wrote:


I can't speak for the other 80+ million gun owners in the USA, but I will not willingly surrender my firearms like the gun owners in Australia and Great Britain meekly did in the 90s. The only thing that keeps a totalitarian police state at bay is an armed citizenry, and the fear that those armed citizens will rise against the state. That's why tyrannical regimes from the left and right political spectrums always seek to disarm the population as Priority #1.

Americans who think that a tyrannical state cannot possibly take hold here in the USA are either ignorant (unknowing), preoccupied, blind (metaphorically), or self-deceived.

Apathy always seems to rule (i.e. only about 20% of Americans were directly involved in the independence rebellion against Great Briatain), but I've made the conscious decision that the state will have to take my firearms "from my cold dead fingers." Call it armed civil disobedience. And I hardly qualify as a redneck with a 75 IQ.

Although it may initially take the lives of a number of victimized gun owners (possibly me too?), once the tyrannical state feels continued armed resistence (which is highly infectious in the population), they will fold like a cheap pack of cards and run for their own lives.



OK, you're starting to scare me. If you look at the the number of states who have had their governments overturned in the last 50 years, how many have been done by a citizen army? Very, very few. (Castro comes to mind.) It is most commonly either done by an organized campaign of civil disobedience, or by a faction of the existing army.

I am concerned about the degradation of civil rights that we've seen since the 911 attacks. I will respond to this by attempting to vote out of office those elected officials that support things such as illegal wiretapping and extraordinary rendition.

Don't get me wrong, if you are a hunter, marksman, or other shooter, I don't want to mess up your hobby. If you have a gun for protection, I'd like you to evaluate the available statistics and make sure that it is a good idea. In either case, I'd like you to keep your guns locked up when they are not in your personal possession.

The best defense against a tyrannical govemment is the ballot box and the law.

Also, the Supreme Court decision that I think was the impetus for this thread was about a law that prohibited handguns, which would be nearly useless against any military force.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #40   
sg wrote:
jackass wrote:
slip slip sliding down the rabbit hole to crazy town...

I guess politics and hang gliding shouldn't mix. I'll bow out before it gets ugly.


You applied the crazy emote to gun owners and just described their position as crazy town. The only person even starting to make this ugly is you, with some subtle attacks. Sad


BS SG
Look at the title of your thread.
bury button.

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