| View previous topic :: View next topic |
|
NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7364
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:16 am Post subject: |
 #81 |
| silver wrote: |
....I was surprised as well of the fact that it is easier than I thought to tumble a glider ,after making such mistakes .
But I'm very happy in many ways that it happened , giving me a "long term protection" in our amazing sport . |
Shay - You and your friend may be saving one or more lives down the road by having posted the tumble and discussed it in the public. You are a couple of mensches doing a real mizpah.
Mazel tov to you both!
Jonathan
|
|
|
|
peanuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 1880
Location: virginia
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
#82 |
| a quick question to be considered - is a "stalled" wing still considered to be "flying"?
|
|
|
|
lostgriz
3 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Sep 2007
Posts: 1928
Location: Virginia
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
#83 |
Silver,
Thank you for sharing this video and a great learning opportunity for all of us. Like everyone else, I was amazed at how seemingly easy the U2 tumbled. Given the combination circumstances that have been discussed here, I think we will all take something away from this incident.
Most of all, glad you landed safely!
Matt
_________________
Wills Wing U2 160
"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
http://vimeo.com/27531088# |
|
|
|
old newbie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 811
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: |
#84 |
I am amazed at the pilots surprised by this. Did you really think hangs can't collapse? Watch out for the HGDMC.
Steve
|
|
|
|
dave hopkins
3 thumbs up
Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 722
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
#85 |
| old newbie wrote: |
I am amazed at the pilots surprised by this. Did you really think hangs can't collapse? Watch out for the HGDMC.
Steve |
Understand and respect your aircraft's limitations and fly accordingly.
The sport is full of idiot ideas and it's a big reason why we lose so many pilots
I have flown for 35 yrs and have never tried a whip stall. That's like throwing the bar out and saying" I'm stupid, just kill me! ". 
Dave[/b]
|
|
|
|
Tormod
2 thumbs up
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 180
Location: Oslo, Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
#86 |
| old newbie wrote: |
I am amazed at the pilots surprised by this. Did you really think hangs can't collapse? Watch out for the HGDMC.
Steve |
We're not Rick Master, what do you want?
|
|
|
|
NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7364
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
#87 |
| Tormod wrote: |
| old newbie wrote: |
I am amazed at the pilots surprised by this. Did you really think hangs can't collapse? Watch out for the HGDMC.
Steve |
We're not Rick Master, what do you want? |
Yes we are. Who do you think this is? http://www.hanggliding.org/search.php?search_author=GuessWho
|
|
|
|
Tormod
2 thumbs up
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 180
Location: Oslo, Norway
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
#88 |
He's on the .org, no suprise, he haven't posted on this tread though.
Steve Forslund is his old adversary and couldn't resist giving us a little stab to get back at Masters. It fails because the analogy to PG,s in this case would be to enter a, for example, full stall on purpose and then aggragating the situation by falling into the wing. All aircraft can be pushed into a unrecoverable situation, hanggliders and paragliders very much so.
And again, I resent being associated with Rick Masters. He's an extremist, at least when it comes to his quest against paragliding.
|
|
|
|
old newbie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 811
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
#89 |
Just having a little fun and not directed at Rick as you can't debate those on a holy mission. I am not an adversary as I enjoy flying both hangs and bags. I do get tired of reading posts by pilots who think their choice makes sense and is superior to others. This topic has shown that some pilots have not thought it out or are in denial of limitations of what they fly. Fly what you choose to and fly safe.
Steve
| Tormod wrote: |
He's on the .org, no suprise, he haven't posted on this tread though.
Steve Forslund is his old adversary and couldn't resist giving us a little stab to get back at Masters. It fails because the analogy to PG,s in this case would be to enter a, for example, full stall on purpose and then aggragating the situation by falling into the wing. All aircraft can be pushed into a unrecoverable situation, hanggliders and paragliders very much so.
And again, I resent being associated with Rick Masters. He's an extremist, at least when it comes to his quest against paragliding. |
|
|
|
|
johnw2738
1 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Dec 2011
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:55 am Post subject: |
#90 |
| Hi I am John Williams, By profession i am a web designer and i like to make new friends virtually. This is so good to see many new users here.
|
|
|
|
TheNewGuy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
#91 |
Just for the sake of understanding....and to share my experience in an attempt to prevent others from making the same mistake....or maybe im a glutton for virtual punishment....
but I recently I had my first weak link break while scooter towing.
Here is the video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xMeJbKbNOQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
After watching this tuck video, I cant help but feel a little haunted by that memory.... I had seen several weak links break, and "knew" what to do..IMMEDIATELY!! pull in and hold untill flying again... but it was very unnerving, and after thinking about it more I feel i have learned some valuable lessons... and that this event was more of a "near disaster" then i originally thought.
back information.. I am flying a sport 2 135
1)It was about 330 pm.
2)wind was ENE at about 10-15mph..and gusty from thermal activity.(you can see a small amount of turbulence just before the break)
3)I left my bridle at home and launched with a different one that had old weak links...BAD IDEA!!!
3)I had 1/3 VG pulled
4)I did not hold onto the cart untill it picked up. BAD IDEA!!!!
5)#4 allowed me to have a high AoA at very low altitude/airspeed...VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA!!!!!!!
6)I hesitated a fraction of a second after the weak link broke, and "decided" to work *with* the natural pitch down of the glider instead of forcing it... (not sure if this is bad or not I am comparing my self to this video of a friend of mine, from the same day! )... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nupIjR25Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
notice his AoA is much better at the point of lift off, and he does not hesitate at the release.. he does not "swing" (heals kicking the keel) like i did..AND he stayed more composed and therefore had a better landing... he is flying a NW horizon ET 180?
So I would like to get some opinions about the likely hood of a tuck caused from a weak link break/early release?
Also I would like to get a few opinions on the most important points to keep in mind when towing, with regards to this subject. ( I think I know...but lets see what others say.. and maybe this will help make things more concrete in my head, or put some food for thought in others heads...)
|
|
|
|
AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
#92 |
Probably not enough to tuck a glider... the most alarming this is, as the nose drops, you push out. I've seen this a lot, and it seems to be a natural reaction for a lot of people, trying to "push" the nose up. It doesn't work like that, and it's exactly NOT what you want to do in that situation.
For the sake of accuracy, you said you have a really high angle of attack early as you come out of the cart. Angle of attack is relative to airflow, and you were climbing. If you were roughly at trim, that you probably have the same angle of attack as any other time you're flying at trim (with or without a rope attached). You do have a high nose angle relative to the horizon, but that's not the same as a high angle of attack.
Where these two ideas come together is when getting off tow (or in this case a weaklink break). Suddenly you're not climbing, and because of the nose-high attitude you're quickly decelerating. Ideally, you would react quickly and pull in BEFORE stalling, so the glider doesn't stall at such a high nose angle and the dramatic no-airspeed-nose-drop ensues. But humans ain't perfect, and it looks like you missed that opportunity here. Your reaction to pull in was correct. Because you were a little late on the pull in, the glider stalled and the nose dropped. If you could have pulled in any more to get the nose lower BEFORE stalling, the nose drop would have been less severe (less rotational inertia as you pitch over). As the nose drops, STAY PULLED IN! Pushing out is BAD!
Like I said, I don't think this would be enough to tumble you (obviously it wasn't), but like you said there are a lot of similarities between this video and the tuck... it's just everything in the tuck video was a little more exaggerated.
One thing to think about is that, in truck or stationary winch towing, the higher you get the lower your nose is relative to the horizon, because the tow forces are more in line with gravity. At the very start of the tow, the tow forces are nearly horizontal, and if the tow operator applies too much tension, your "trim" AofA can be very high relative to the horizon. It doesn't really matter... until a weaklink breaks, then it's bad news! I would recommend A) lower tow pressures near the ground, so you have a lower nose-angle relative to the horizon in case of weaklink failure or whatever, and B) Fly a little faster than trim for the first while of the tow. More airspeed also means a lower nose-angle relative to the horizon, but more importantly gives you more time to react to a weaklink break before running out of airspeed and stalling nose-high like that.
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
|
|
|
blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 3757
Location: Roeland Park, KS
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:44 am Post subject: |
#93 |
| Quote: |
4)I did not hold onto the cart untill it picked up. BAD IDEA!!!!
|
This is a myth. One does NOT have to lift the cart in the performance of a safe and proper cart launch.
Good recovery. You just got slow and your wings were not level when you needed to flare. Good thing you had a nice easy headwind or WHACK!
_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212 |
|
|
|
TheNewGuy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
#94 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
Probably not enough to tuck a glider... the most alarming this is, as the nose drops, you push out. I've seen this a lot, and it seems to be a natural reaction for a lot of people, trying to "push" the nose up. It doesn't work like that, and it's exactly NOT what you want to do in that situation.
|
The way I recall it I didnt actually "push out" but I hesitated to pull in..and this caused me to be left behind the glider as it spent its inertia and put me in a bar position equal to pushing out...then I realized the natural pitch down from the imminent stall wasnt as strong as I expected, and then I pulled in..luckily I did so before the glider lost too much energy.
| Quote: |
For the sake of accuracy, you said you have a really high angle of attack early as you come out of the cart. Angle of attack is relative to airflow, and you were climbing. If you were roughly at trim, that you probably have the same angle of attack as any other time you're flying at trim (with or without a rope attached). You do have a high nose angle relative to the horizon, but that's not the same as a high angle of attack.
|
| Quote: |
Where these two ideas come together is when getting off tow (or in this case a weaklink break). Suddenly you're not climbing, and because of the nose-high attitude you're quickly decelerating. Ideally, you would react quickly and pull in BEFORE stalling, so the glider doesn't stall at such a high nose angle and the dramatic no-airspeed-nose-drop ensues. But humans ain't perfect, and it looks like you missed that opportunity here. Your reaction to pull in was correct. Because you were a little late on the pull in, the glider stalled and the nose dropped. If you could have pulled in any more to get the nose lower BEFORE stalling, the nose drop would have been less severe (less rotational inertia as you pitch over). As the nose drops, STAY PULLED IN! Pushing out is BAD!
|
Thank you for the clarification! This is exactly what I was after.. I kinda already understood that, but your explanation helps to make it more clear why these two events are different.
| Quote: |
| B) Fly a little faster than trim for the first while of the tow. More airspeed also means a lower nose-angle relative to the horizon, but more importantly gives you more time to react to a weaklink break before running out of airspeed and stalling nose-high like that. |
This is why I think holding onto the cart is important...it is an easy way for someone like me to insure that they have that little extra airspeed...in order to have enough lift to pick up the cart you must have enough speed...right?
in fact more speed then is required for the glider to lift by itself..and that little extra airspeed that can be used up before the real stall break occurs...?
| Quote: |
Good recovery. You just got slow and your wings were not level when you needed to flare. Good thing you had a nice easy headwind or WHACK!
|
yea, thats why I didn't flair...I just did what I could to ride out/minimize the ground loop I knew was coming..The head wind was a real blessing! I believe I could have gotten the wings level...but again, I was flustered and my corrections nearing ground effect were too little too late...
|
|
|
|
Skyhighwoman
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 2185
Location: Bay Area
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
#95 |
I do not tow but i do have a question
Is it a good idea to ZIP UP all the way incase of weak line breakage?
it seems zippn to the knees so you relax your knees but still be able to get out the harness in case a quick landing is needed such as winklink break.
just asking.
Carm
_________________
H4 (started 1987) - DHP
flying: U2160, Falcon 2 195, Litesport
http://www.youtube.com/skyhighwoman
Look not just with your eyes but also your brain. There's a whole new world. |
|
|
|
blindrodie
3 thumbs up
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 3757
Location: Roeland Park, KS
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: |
#96 |
Any time one uses a platform launch or cart they should, in my opinion have the boot at least 3/4 open. It's standard procedure for us!
YMMV
_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"
Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212 |
|
|
|
TheNewGuy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
#97 |
| Skyhighwoman wrote: |
I do not tow but i do have a question
Is it a good idea to ZIP UP all the way incase of weak line breakage?
it seems zippn to the knees so you relax your knees but still be able to get out the harness in case a quick landing is needed such as winklink break.
just asking.
Carm |
You are correct. It is standard practice for us as well. As far as I know it is never recommended to be fully zipped up when cart launching...even though it might appear I am fully zipped.. I am NOT.. In fact just as you suggested I am zipped to just above the knees... I place that I have found through LOTS of practice hanging from my homemade simulator in my garage, that I can easily spread my knees apart and step out of...
If anything this just shows that at that moment I was back to feeling in control and I did a "normal" unzip procedure....
|
|
|
|
AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
#98 |
| TheNewGuy wrote: |
The way I recall it I didnt actually "push out" but I hesitated to pull in..and this caused me to be left behind the glider as it spent its inertia and put me in a bar position equal to pushing out...then I realized the natural pitch down from the imminent stall wasnt as strong as I expected, and then I pulled in..luckily I did so before the glider lost too much energy. |
When the weaklink pops you pull in hard (good). But you don't hold it. Whether you literally "pushed" out or just allowed your CG to become very far aft is pretty irrelevant (the decreased pitch stability of a glider with aft CG doesn't care WHY the CG moved aft) Check the attached images for bar position similarities... the difference is how nose high each of you were before the nose-down rotation, and how much inertia there was carrying you past equilibrium. He was nose higher, probably less airspeed, on a higher aspect/less swept wing, with more VG.... but what each of you do AFTER the nose drops is nearly identical (different outcomes obviously).
| TheNewGuy wrote: |
| This is why I think holding onto the cart is important...it is an easy way for someone like me to insure that they have that little extra airspeed...in order to have enough lift to pick up the cart you must have enough speed...right? |
Yes, but you're not thinking big picture. When you lift the cart, you have extra wingloading- which requires extra lift, which requires extra airspeed. So yes, you are correct so far. But what happens when you let go of the cart? Your airspeed doesn't change, but your wingloading does! It's going to be very difficult to lift and drop the cart without having a significant pitch-up as your wingloading changes... putting you at a nose-high attitude, low. Personally I like to hold on to the cart as I roll (so I don't bounce out), but I control when I lift out with pitch- the farther you pull in, the faster you'll be going before you lift out of the cart. If I'm pulled in to best L/D or better, once I feel the glider lifting, I have no reason to lift the cart- I know my airspeed and I know I'm well-beyond stall speed.
I am not trying to sell you on "my way", I'm sure there are lots of ways... just sharing it for perspective. There are a lot of physics/forces at play in flying... and even more so when towing... but it's important to think about things fully. This is where observation can be helpful. If you watch someone lift the cart, from the side, and can see them pop up as they drop the cart, you can deconstruct why that happened (change in wingloading).
Media BLOCKED
Please REGISTER
and log in to see this content
|
Media BLOCKED
Please REGISTER
and log in to see this content
|
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
|
|
|
TheNewGuy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
#99 |
Thanks for the help! I really appreciate the input! Its an honor to have my stills next to yours! even if I am the "what-not-to-do" side of an equation! 
I watched the video again and I see what you are saying. I guess I was thinking/talking about what I felt... Sorry i'm not at home so I cant take stills, but If you watch the video one more time, you will see the weak link pops, and I kinda naturally fly thru the control frame... I knew I needed to get the nose down to correct the situation...so I let it...I wasnt even counting this as "pulling in"..it "felt" like it happened naturally..maybe I did pull in at the begining... anyway, the nose starts to rotate,..I *expected* to feel the glider wanting to nose down...meaning back bar pressure...bar pushing further towards my belt....I was going to let it.... but I think what I felt was gradually increasing forward bar pressure...it felt like a general "going back to normal" feeling...so I let it...as the bar flew past trim I realized things were not back to normal yet, and I would need to pull in, by that time the bar was moving pretty fast and by the time I pulled in I had traveled to that WAY pushed out position...I pulled in and thankfully felt normal forward pressure..held it, and finally began flying...so I let it...lol
I then slow down when unzipping....before I had leveled the wings completely...
get mushy...and my normal inputs arent enough to correct the roll...and the rest is what you get...by the way isnt that side wire "boing" as I come to rest in the grass hillarious!...
about unzipping..I felt in control at that moment and it *felt* natural to unzip normally. As I said I was zipped specifically to a point I had found thru practice to be easy to unzip with my knees and step out of.. but I dont think I ever actually practiced doing it in the air..I think thats why I chose to unzip "normally", thats why it felt more natural..clearly I should have finished leveling the wings, and made sure to maintain speed, and unzipped with my knees if needed.
The reason I mentioned high nose on launch is that my instructor mentioned I was allowing the nose to get high, the following weekend..so I kinda think I was doing this day as well. Thanks for the clarification of what is happening at take off, re holding/not holding the cart.. I will be sure to work on this in the future... I believe my barrel release location is part of the problem, and I will start there.
Thanks!
Sorry for temporarily derailing the thread.
|
|
|
|
su27sushka
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: |
#100 |
| On the original topic: I just wonder if a tail, like in Atoses or new Combats, would helped to prevent this accident...
|
|
|
|
|
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
