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Willmrx
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Northern Cal
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
 #41 |
| day dreamer wrote: |
| Well said on a topic that hits a nerve. I have talked to other chapters, and it seems that nobody wants to be the bad guy. So safety officer is an undesirable position. If the ref makes a call, the club should be behind him. Alot of times it's said they have your back, but when a problem occurs and somebody's ego is in the balance, everyone soon begins to butt out of it, and no longer back the safety officer and becomes the leper. And I will crop dust and land on a limb here and say that every chapter has that pilot in the group that may be at risk to the site simply for the sake of his or her ego, and lack of consideration for what is called "margin". Yea we all love em, we do, but things are clearly changing and all it takes is that one stubborn invincible pilot to change the lives of so many. I am not hatin, I am respecting my privilege to fly. Seems like every accident like this, so many are not surprised by the actions of the pilot involved. |
_________________
Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself -- and I will obey every law or submit to the penalty.---- Chief Joseph, Washington, D.C. 1879 |
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tom emery
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 631
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: Sanctions |
#42 |
First, I want to wish the pilot a speedy recovery.
I was just wondering if there are sanctions imposed either by the site managers or by USHPA for violations of this kind. |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Sanctions |
#43 |
| day dreamer wrote: |
| I have talked to other chapters, and it seems that nobody wants to be the bad guy. So safety officer is an undesirable position. If the ref makes a call, the club should be behind him. Alot of times it's said they have your back, but when a problem occurs and somebody's ego is in the balance, everyone soon begins to butt out of it, and no longer back the safety officer and becomes the leper. |
Well said Day. Sadly, that's how it goes. I'm the Safety Officer (and RD) here in Utah, and I can't begin to tell you how unpopular it makes me. Luckily I have the disposition for it, 'cause I don't give a $h!t what people think about me... but it seems few have this character flaw 
The way I see it, I have plenty of friends... but not enough flying sites. If I have to lose a friend to keep a flying site, I will. I don't want to... but I will...
It's kind of funny, but being as vocal as I am about people doing stupid stuff, I have MADE as many friends as I may have lost (maybe more). People seem to respect standing up for your values/beliefs, even if they don't necessarily agree, or are to shy to do the same.
| tom emery wrote: |
I was just wondering if there are sanctions imposed either by the site managers or by USHPA for violations of this kind. |
See attached SOP 12-07...
A few highlights:
| Quote: |
| A. Conduct demonstrating a lack of judgment and maturity commensurate with the rating, certification or appointment. |
| Quote: |
| G. Any actions that jeopardize a flying site, including but not limited to using a site for instruction or tandem flights without securing landowner permission where such permission may be required. |
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
#44 |
| NMERider wrote: |
It's also your RD's job to revoke and suspend rating as indicated according to the SOPs.
What have they been doing all this time? |
Obviously not watching your videos! 
http://youtu.be/EOAc8ZHqY9Q?t=12m39s
| Quote: |
| I. Violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations, including but not limited to FAR part 103 and violations of the airspace usage requirements. |
This is exactly what people here have been talking about... people cry for SOMEONE ELSE to take action, while they themselves break rules too.
How can you pick-and-choose which rules should be enforced and which to push aside? 
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:46 am Post subject: |
#45 |
Why do pilots do this?
Pretty clearly because ridge soaring is boring.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
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dievhart
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 1430
Location: Santa Cruz, CA (Fort Funston)
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: |
#46 |
Low loops or the crashing into the ground part?
You should come out and play, we even have rainbow dragons, I think that's what smacked into Art.
Diev
_________________
Diev Hart
T2C 154, Lightspeed 4, Super Sport 153,
SL200, U2 160, Predator 142
FL, CL, FSL, AWCL, RLF, AT, TFL, TUR, XC, MNTR
http://www.dievhart.com/hangglide.html
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hgphotos/
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25414 (HG.org Camera Mounts) |
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Richard Saffold
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 75
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:52 am Post subject: |
#47 |
| Art was very lucky. So were all the pilots that use this site.. |
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FMAN
1 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 1180
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
#48 |
| Is Art the first and only pilot to violate Mfgr. or Fort Funston site regulations? |
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Willmrx
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Northern Cal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:32 am Post subject: |
#49 |
[
Obviously not watching your videos!
http://youtu.be/EOAc8ZHqY9Q?t=12m39s
| Quote: |
| I. Violations of the Federal Aviation Regulations, including but not limited to FAR part 103 and violations of the airspace usage requirements. |
How can you pick-and-choose which rules should be enforced and which to push aside? [/quote]
_________________
Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself -- and I will obey every law or submit to the penalty.---- Chief Joseph, Washington, D.C. 1879 |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
#50 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| NMERider wrote: |
It's also your RD's job to revoke and suspend rating as indicated according to the SOPs.
What have they been doing all this time? |
Obviously not watching your videos!
http://youtu.be/EOAc8ZHqY9Q?t=12m39s ... |
Thank goodness that you, CAL and Shaddo came out that day two years ago or I would have missed this rare day. I left that scene in the video to illustrate how there are times when clouds will envelope a pilot and box him in so that the only choice is to land in the trees or pull the bar and punch out through the mist.
However, I would agree that this may create the wrong impression in an unwitting pilot that it's o.k. to deliberately do this or place yourself in such a situation that it's unavoidable. I have BTW, spoken w/ my RDs to see who have complained about my activities. Ironically, the only complaint was over a photograph that I had independently removed due to an online rant about it. The complainer is a very good friend and wanted to make damn sure that the photo was not only removed but that everyone else understood what was at stake in his mind's eye.
I was also ranted at elsewhere for posting another video where I fly over Class C airspace but not in it. A legitimate concern is that other pilots may follow the same route too low and enter Class C airspace. I deleted that video and removed other references that could be misinterpreted by others and have the same, negative end result.
So, I would guess there is also flying that is FAR & SOP compliant that may be misinterpreted by other pilots and emulated in a way that can later threaten a flying site due to an accident or unfortunate rescue.
An example of FAR-SOP compliant flying that I no longer engage in, is landing at a certain Class G airport without using an air-band radio to communicate with GA pilots. Although I have no legal obligation other than avoid the pattern and 'see and avoid', the use of air-band is a courtesy to the flying community that helps keep the welcome mat extended for future use.
So, there is the big 'C' word - Courtesy. I have heard it's contagious and that we should all get infected.
Then there's my pet peeve which is the inappropriate use of the 'Bible Thumping Hellfire and Damnation' approach to persuasion. Notice that I said, 'inappropriate' use. I'm sure there are times when that is what is needed to get the message across to the 'unfaithful'.
The litter-mate of my pet peeve is the failure to use direct, one-on-one communication and the proliferation of gossip and back-biting. I have observed that this is part of the human condition along with obstinance and rebellion against the tyranny of bible-thumping and back-biting.
So my consternation about site (and bone) preservation is that the tyranny of bible-thumping and back-biting has the reverse of the intended effect and may result in an increase in non-compliant flying that may jeopardize our flying sites just as silence and inaction may do. Ironically and sadly, it seems that many of the obstinate, non-compliant pilots weed themselves out via injury or death.  |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:01 am Post subject: |
#51 |
| Willmrx wrote: |
| ....How can you pick-and-choose which rules should be enforced and which to push aside?.... |
I have never been a safety director or RD, but have been privy to many behind-the-scenes decision making discussions. When there is a pattern of intentional disregard or flaunting of the rules that undermines the rules as a whole and sets a bad precedent that others are likely to follow then rules should be enforced. Why do I get consulted? I think that's pretty obvious.
There are plenty of rule violations that are incidental and unavoidable and are not part of a pattern and that require little more than a word to the wise. I personally feel that the judgement required for maximizing FAR-SOP compliance and fun is greater than the judgement required to fly X/C in marginal conditions.
It seems to me that the Aussies and other nations behave more as a group than us Yanks. I have heard the frequent complaint that clubs don't act in unity to keep everyone (reasonably) in line. So, I think it may be more important for the safety officer to get everyone in the club aligned to act cohesively with respect to a repeat rule-offender rather than just one club officer acting as the 'Heavy'.
How many clubs do you know where a majority of pilots rally support for the rules and the safety officer? If you have any examples, please share how this works. So, in this regard I really do prefer the Aussie Method. That is, where a club acts as a group to keep everyone reasonably in line with the rules and site preservation.
We have never met in person (it will be hate at first sight  ) but you will learn that I really do regard HG as a Group Activity and not as an individual pursuit. |
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Paul H
2 thumbs up
Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2182
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:05 am Post subject: |
#52 |
| NMERider wrote: |
I left that scene in the video to illustrate how there are times when clouds will envelope a pilot and box him in so that the only choice is to land in the trees or pull the bar and punch out through the mist.
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A pilot that isn't paying attention to his surroundings.
_________________
Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
#53 |
| Paul H wrote: |
| NMERider wrote: |
I left that scene in the video to illustrate how there are times when clouds will envelope a pilot and box him in so that the only choice is to land in the trees or pull the bar and punch out through the mist.
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A pilot that isn't paying attention to his surroundings. |
It could have been!  |
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mlbco
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 517
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
#54 |
Art Thompson posted his version of what happened on Facebook today. Here is what he said:
The pilot's point of view. I posted this previously but through the magic of Face book it disappeared. I had performed two previous loops in this area on this day the first one was uneventful. But the second did not go so well but I was successfully able to get the glider extricated from the not so good maneuver. I surmised that the problem was caused by insufficient energy due to the marginal altitude available to convert to airspeed, slowing to gain altitude resulted in lower airspeed at the inception of the maneuver requiring a longer dive to obtain the necessary airspeed to perform the loop. Being unsatisfied with my previous performance I was determined to complete a perfect loop before calling it a day. Having done loops on this glider for 12 yrs it never occurred to me that I would or could do a loop that was even more disastrous than the last one. Upon undertaking the infamous screw up
I decided first that if I was able to gain the necessary airspeed to complete the loop with a shallower dive then there would be less energy required to convert; secondly if I was unhappy with the airspeed indicated or the seat of
the pants feeling at the time of pull up I would abort into a climbing turn instead. As it was I had to dive within 50 or so feet of the deck to get the airspeed needed; regardless everything felt good to go. But as I got to the top the airspeed fell off rapidly and I didn't feel comfortable sticking with the maneuver so I attempted to roll out of the loop. I was almost sucessfull but I think that I held to much back stick durring the roll and before the roll was completed the glider entered a spin. Here I was reluctant to jam the stick forward because I was not sure which way was going to be the cliff and which way was free air. So I gave the glider some forward stick and full oppisite rudder. The glider had responded and was nearly fully flying when I ran out of room. In retrospect I therorize the rapid fall off af airspeed was due to the quartering relative wind as the glider pulled above the cliff into the uncompressed airflow. This combined with the marginal airspeed on entry resulted in the failed maneuver. I am supprised and humbled by my inability to acess the potential for failure, but fail I did. There was nothing wrong with the glider and there was no snaproll the glider performed predictably |
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thermaleo
3 thumbs up
Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
#55 |
Art,
I am really really glad to hear that you are doing OK. I am even more glad that no innocent party was involved or hurt, or worse.
I'm sorry, but your actions at Funston, and all the other show offs there who do aerobatics over the heads of the public, are little short of criminal.
And it's been going on there for years. Fifteen years ago I, in company with a senior local pilot, admonished a pilot there for doing seriously stupid maneuvers right over the heads of the onlookers, at high speed so close as to make people duck.. His response - "Man, you have no idea how comfortable I am with doing those kinds of maneuvers."......!!!!!
Ten years later the same pilot, trying to impress folks with his landing skills, flew into an brand new Atos VQ, badly damaging it.
Complaining about this sort of stuff has had little effect so far - the rules at Funston are simply not enforced, or selectively enforced. But sooner of later, if this continues, a spectator will be badly hurt of killed.
Look out then, all of hang gliding in the USA. It's that serious.
And Art, I am glad your injuries were not worse, and that you will make a full recovery.
Leo Jones |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: |
#56 |
| thermaleo wrote: |
| ...And Art, I am glad your injuries were not worse, and that you will make a full recovery.... |
Leo, I'm glad to hear that Art will recover but how's Eric M. doing? What's really frightening is how fast we all forget about pilots who have been crippled or killed. IMHO, the serious injury/fatality rate in this sport is needlessly high and under-reported.
Jonathan |
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day dreamer
2 thumbs up
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 3740
Location: McClure Pilot
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: |
#57 |
| NMERider wrote: |
| thermaleo wrote: |
| ...And Art, I am glad your injuries were not worse, and that you will make a full recovery.... |
Leo, I'm glad to hear that Art will recover but how's Eric M. doing? What's really frightening is how fast we all forget about pilots who have been crippled or killed. IMHO, the serious injury/fatality rate in this sport is needlessly high and under-reported.
Jonathan |
Agreed Jonathan, Respect this sport. No don't smother it with over the top crazy regulated safety. We got into this sport for all our own selfish reasons, let's reinvest. Art, seen you loop every time at McClure fly-in's, no question you know that wing, but even you got bit. Glad you are O.K. and that is reason enough for me to check myself regularly. I got into this for simple pleasure of flight in any way I can safely take it.
_________________
Always a student.
"The mountain doesn't care what that card in your wallet says." - Bruce Stobbe |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
#58 |
| day dreamer wrote: |
| .....that is reason enough for me to check myself regularly. I got into this for simple pleasure of flight in any way I can safely take it. |
DD - We don't read enough posts and see enough respect given to pilots who wisely back off and then increase their enjoyment. Does anyone here remember Rod Clark? I do. He went from a Falcon 225 to a Falcon 3 195 to a U2 160 and back to a Falcon 3 195 and when I last saw him on his second F3 195 was when I drove him up to Crestline launch last year and he seemed to be having the time of his life. I respect that and it saddens me that this is not accepted as something both cool and desirable.
I tell my race buddies that I'm not feeling well enough to fly my race gear and would still love to come out and join the fun but it will have to be on my Falcon 3 195 and cocoon harness and the response goes something along the lines of "You no longer exist as far as we're concerned". I am of course paraphrasing but that's not far off the mark, I assure you.
Let's read more from pilots who wish to blow their own horns about staying within their limits or backing away and still enjoying the sport or better yet--enjoying it even more.
PLEASE! |
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knumbknuts
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 5004
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
#59 |
Rod was selling his falcon, last I heard.
Sorry to s*** on the point. |
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NMERider
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7361
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
#60 |
| knumbknuts wrote: |
Rod was selling his falcon, last I heard.
Sorry to s*** on the point. |
No worries. I hope it's so he can help raise the kinder-folk and then return when they've achieved latch-key status like so many others. |
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