[Jimmy D]

If this topic has been discussed feel free to redirect me - If not I thought it might be fun to kick around. Twice in the last two days it has come to my attention that an unofficial protocol in non comp situations might be nice.
In the first, a P2 asked to step up as the winds were too light for my liking, I agreed and after his first attempt to canopy the winds picked up and I was bitting at the bit. 10 minutes later and two more attempts at canopy an unofficial launch director asked him to step aside - he did, and I launched and eventually clawed my way up and scored a couple of hours - I was sure I had launched in the very end of that thermal but all worked out
In the second instance a friend was second behind a PG(though it could easily have been a HG) and the wind was very light but pilots were thermalling to the left and to the right in light up. He shouted "pushing" but was denied for 45 minutes or so. There was quite a line of pilots waiting more than one of which was also pushing.
First off, can a comp pilot tell us what the protocal is for comps? Secondly should that be adopted for non-comp situations? I know there would be no way to enforce this but it would be nice to have an awareness of what other pilots think

[Mavi Gogun]

My understanding of typical comp rules:

There is a 2 minute launch window for paragliders, 1 minute for hang gliders.

A paraglider pilot failing to launch and requiring the sail to be relayed isn't permitted a second attempt; the pilot goes to the end of the line; if the pilot is able to launch down slope without relaying the sail, they are permitted to do so.

Pushing forces all preceding pilots in the takeoff line to launch in the allotted time or re-queue- so if you are 4th in line, push, 1, 2, & 3 have the option of using their 1 or 2 minutes window first.

If you push, are in the launch slot, but choose not to and conditions are judged safe, you are disqualified from the round.

In a non-comp circumstance- well, there are a lot of factors, aren't there? Some people you make allowances for- but a 45 minute launch potato? Absolutely not. The #2 guy has the biggest right to growl, while anybody further back in line might ask those in front if any are inclined to push. If they aren't, some dude from the very back could step to the front. Usually, we let the pushed pilot move to the second slot. The same dude repeatedly camping, getting pushed, moving to the second spot, camping, getting pushed might loose a spot in line. If conditions look amenable, instead of crying push, it's usually something softer- 'Hey, dude- I like the looks of this. Are you going to take it? If not, I will." - then the ballet begins as gliders are shuffled.

[Windlord]

Pushing. . . . never heard of it in relation to flying.
Thanks for the clarification Mavi, this is a new one on me.

[Jason]

i've never heard the term either

I just say "s*** or get off the pot"

[AIRTHUG]

At the risk of stirring the pot... assuming this was happeneing at Ellenville...

Isn't it a P4 site? Why was a P2 on launch at all?

Also- a large portion of the PG pilots in that area have terrible fundamental skills, such as inflations, launching, kiting, etc. Not entirely their fault, they don't get to practice like we do here at the Point.... but still, worth mentioning, and probably the reason this P2 "couldn't get it up" when that good cycle came through.

At the Point some pilots will "push"... it's usually pretty friendly/simple here... whoever pushed goes around everyone and launches. Dangerous Dave does it the most, and usually doesn't even put the glider down between walking to the front of the line and launching.

[$!><]

This may have happened at Greylock. I believe Jim flew there over the weekend.

[Jimmy D]

[FMAN]

Another consideration is if there is a narrow launch window. A safe launch has more weight than everyone getting in the air but you don't want to be a launch potato causing pilots to have fold up their wings.

[Eteamjack]

[aeroexperiments]

At Woodrat mountain in southern Oregon, the site protocol has come about that the paraglider pilots kindly allow hang glider pilots to step in front of the line of laid-out paragliders.

In part, recognition of our special status as an endangered species?

In part, recognition of the launch geometry, it is easy for the paragliders to lay out way behind the place where a hang glider pilot would want to run from, so unless you go stand up there just to mark your place in line where you have no intention of actually starting from (not out of the question I guess), there will forever be more paragliders ready to go further up the ramp.

Yeah I guess we could just go stand up there and wait. I guess it's mainly in recognition of our special status as an endangered species and historical curiosity and terrible handicap of needing to go through such a cumbersome set-up process. Also in recognition of the fact that it usually takes us much less time to actually launch, factoring in all the mutiple inflation attempts that are sometimes needed for the paragliders...

Whatever it is, I like it that way....

Just don't try that during the Rat Race...

Steve

[Suneagle]

When I'm ready to go, I'm liking conditions, otherwise I sit and watch others. Once in the harness I sweat profusely so I want to get the air-conditioning turned on pronto.
If launch is bogged, I just yell out, "I'm ready to go NOW, mind if I push in?" and usually the answer is Yes, because they are all waiting for someone to show the next thermal. I get on launch and don't mess around. No complaints.

If there are just one or two in front of me, I'll wait patiently but if I see that I could have launched I start growling - "Hey, looks good now, what are we waiting for."

I'll nag, niggle, but not push too hard - who knows - if they stuff up they might blame you. We all know our limits and what I see as launchable may not be in their range.

If they offer me a spot I'll take it, but then I go. I hate it when I let someone in ahead of me and then they prop there for 15 minutes, so I don't do it to others. If I'm on launch and conditions deteriorate, then I'll openly offer my spot to any takers. It would be nice if others did the same, but... human nature...

The worst thing to do is to get flustered... that leads to mistakes. Sometimes I see my pressure may be flustering someone else (usually a novice), so I'll back off and encourage "Take your time, looks good now, would you like me to go first and get out of your hair?"

I'm not impatient, nor greedy, but my severe sweat loss is a dehydration problem for me, so I really do feel a need to launch sooner than later.

Diplomacy on launch takes practice and sometimes you just have to wait at the tail of big long queue and repeat to yourself "I should have prepared better so I don't have to be here next time." How else did all your mates beat you to the punch!

Jerry

[jjcote]

The problem with Greylock, which is where I believe this incident took place, is that you get paragliders trying multiple inflations and hogging up the space, during periods when it may be perfectly fine for hang gliders. A guy holding a bunch of fabric is more nimble than one carrying a big ol' wing, so it's easy for them to scoot out and dump their bag on the ground in the PG launch area before a HG pilot has a chance to move. We launch from further down the slope than they do, but when they're laid out, it blocks our path. Various factors make it a very popular site -- Saturday there were 49 pilots there, and I've been there twice on days when there were 58. Add to this the fact that a lot of the PG pilots seem to have limited English language skills and maybe some cultural differences as well. Sometimes you'll get a pilot stepping up to act as a traffic cop, and that can help. I've seen a "5 HGs, 5 PGs" protocol used, which works sometimes, but if conditions are good for one kind of wing but not the other, a pilot with the wrong wing who has finally made it to launch and doesn't want to relinquish his spot can clog things up. 45 minutes of waiting is awful. Sometimes you have to say something like "Two more tries, and if you aren't off, then I'm coming through!".

[Jimmy D]

[jjcote]

Understood. Well, wherever your flight was, Greylock does have the issues that I described. It's the only place I've flown where this happens, but despite this, I've enjoyed every flight there. I've seen a little of this, not to the same extent, at West Rutland. What they have in common is that they're both sites that attract large numbers of both HGs and PGs. The places I've flown that were heavily weighted toward one or the other type of wing seemed to have more smoothly flowing traffic.