My last glider, a Sting 2xc, featured distinct dihedral and tracked very well; I could roll out of a sharp bank and flair with little to no regard for yaw type oscillations. Now I've got this Discus C, and I'm having to confront yaw at low level- especially on short field approaches. Aside from a longer final glide, what strategies might be employed to limit the inception or period/duration of yaw?
Well, to start us off with some obvious ones, I'll throw in
- Make the whole approach with smooth coordinated turns.
- Lower bank angle on turns.
- Practicing coming out of turns on the precise heading you are aiming for. If you come down and need to adjust a little to one side or another you are now attempting to neutralize yaw while making course adjustments.
Compare the landing segment from this video of mine featuring a steep diving turn onto final followed by yaw all the way to flare:
https://vimeo.com/36460194
I'm talk'n about short field approaches- like landing East to West at Lookout by pulling a 180 at the wind sock, landing by the cone; I could manage that on the Sting- with the Discus, I suspect I'd be yawing all the way to the parking lot. Maybe I want something that isn't possible. What you mentioned about turn coordination is a good point- dropping out slow from a high bank turn seemed to produce more yaw on my Sting (well, if you count dive recovery)...
Gotcha. That's not an approach I've ever tried, although I've seen it done many times. Are those the kind of tolerances you're working with at your current sites? Pretty tight!
Yes, sport2 155. Wonderful wing. As gentle as she is, I've still got a lot of learning to do as can be seen in that approach and landing linked above. _________________ http://pjwings.blogspot.com/
(Ya- unfortunately, not many large fields 'round these parts; until I'm justifiably confident, I'm limited to a just a few places.)
Time for a drag chute, son!
I've never flown a Discus and don't know how they handle, but barring the drag chute I'd find out how it lands w/ VG off.
I suggest: making your last hand transition midway through your base leg turn to avoid making the glider oscillate by an ill-timed transition during final. Also learn how to steeply dive the glider without oscillating while fully upright with leg apart in zero VG. These are all techniques I use on my T2C 144 and have been able to make a very short base leg, final and flare.
I've never flown a Discus and don't know how they handle, but barring the drag chute I'd find out how it lands w/ VG off.
I hear that. After my first tip drop, I've been landing with the sail slack; a drogue chute is definitely in my near future.
NMERider wrote:
Also learn how to steeply dive the glider without oscillating while fully upright with leg apart in zero VG.
Jonathan- more about this 'legs apart' business- you use 'em like a tightrope walker's pole, or someth'n? Typically, I hold my legs together- but when things go to hell, I've been know to flail either wildly, as needed. What part will they play spread in a dive?
I've never flown a Discus and don't know how they handle, but barring the drag chute I'd find out how it lands w/ VG off.
I hear that. After my first tip drop, I've been landing with the sail slack; a drogue chute is definitely in my near future.
NMERider wrote:
Also learn how to steeply dive the glider without oscillating while fully upright with leg apart in zero VG.
Jonathan- more about this 'legs apart' business- you use 'em like a tightrope walker's pole, or someth'n? Typically, I hold my legs together- but when things go to hell, I've been know to flail either wildly, as needed. What part will they play spread in a dive?
drag. once upon a time, people even tried sort of chaps arrangement between the legs to increase drag even more. now consider how this limited take-off runs. for some unknown reason, they never quite caught on...
You could add a tail similar to a sensor or Willswing. Sorry the C doesn't fly any better than the standard Discus. I hoped Aero's had improved design. I've experienced problems since I purchased mine. Subsequently bought a used U2 which is very sweet flyer. NME's statement about not having flown one is probably for the best. Adding wing tip washout helped a little with mine. _________________ H4 (1979) Lake Elsinore. Ca. U2 160 (Sweet)
You could add a tail similar to a sensor or Willswing.
The yaw only has an impact on the flare window- well, on me hesitating near the flare window, truth be told; I would be loath to dampen the roll response with a fin. It may be that having the luxury of not needing to consider yaw much in the past, I'm a bit insensitive to control- and over sensitive in scale. The yaw isn't as dramatic as, say, on a well loaded Eagle- or the Super and Ultra Sports.
Since it isn't really rolling, I wonder if the flare could be timed to the yaw. Anybody have any success with that?
Also learn how to steeply dive the glider without oscillating while fully upright with leg apart in zero VG.
Jonathan- more about this 'legs apart' business- you use 'em like a tightrope walker's pole, or someth'n? Typically, I hold my legs together- but when things go to hell, I've been know to flail either wildly, as needed. What part will they play spread in a dive?
If I'm high when I turn onto final I will quickly pop the VG off and with both hands on the control bar, will hold my body vertical with legs spread eagle and stuff the bar. Between my splayed out legs, harness tail in between, VG off, and speed, there is a lot of drag. My T2C will do 48mph in this configuration and come down very, very fast. It takes me a lot of muscle, being the big pussy I really am. If I was only a he-man like Ryan.... but I digress.
Gliders become very roll sensitive which is why both hands are on the control bar. Therefore the hand transitions are not done until you are in ground skim at trim speed. As Jim Rooney describes on that other forum, it's scary to do this but it's how to avoid overshoot.
Some pilots used to post on this forum about how they'd do these big ole slipping turns onto final in tight East Coast LZs but I have only seen one pilot ever pull this off as others claim. That is Andy Beem at Windsports in Sylmar on his Litesport. If you blow the slide-slip maneuver I dread to think about it.
Please get a drag chute and learn how to use it well. Deploy it at high altitude and do all your landing patterns up high so you can adjust to the weird pulling actions at different speeds. Drag chutes have saved my bacon several times and I deployed them during ground skim or over tree tops. The times I decided to be a macho man and spare the drogue, I nearly wound up with major repair bills and only missed by one or two RCHs.
Wow, nme, steeply diving while full upright? I don't know whether its me, my harness, or my glider, but I can't do this at all. Hands on down tubes? I suppose they would have to be to hold you full upright? Are you using the thumb-down, palm-backward, arm-stretched-out-behind-you kind of grip? I can do that but the upper body posture ends up being almost the same as if I had just stayed on the base bar. Any good videos from the side?
I know threads about flying fast while upright have come up before but I have yet to find a technique that works for me...
Steve
NMERider wrote:
Mavi Gogun wrote:
pjwings wrote:
Yes, sport2 155.
Discus C, short pack, 4 flights- I'll trade ya...
(Ya- unfortunately, not many large fields 'round these parts; until I'm justifiably confident, I'm limited to a just a few places.)
Time for a drag chute, son!
I've never flown a Discus and don't know how they handle, but barring the drag chute I'd find out how it lands w/ VG off.
I suggest: making your last hand transition midway through your base leg turn to avoid making the glider oscillate by an ill-timed transition during final. Also learn how to steeply dive the glider without oscillating while fully upright with leg apart in zero VG. These are all techniques I use on my T2C 144 and have been able to make a very short base leg, final and flare.
Last edited by aeroexperiments on Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
If I'm high when I turn onto final I will quickly pop the VG off and with both hands on the control bar, will hold my body vertical with legs spread eagle and stuff the bar. Between my splayed out legs, harness tail in between, VG off, and speed, there is a lot of drag. My T2C will do 48mph in this configuration and come down very, very fast. It takes me a lot of muscle, being the big pussy I really am. If I was only a he-man like Ryan.... but I digress.
Gliders become very roll sensitive which is why both hands are on the control bar. Therefore the hand transitions are not done until you are in ground skim at trim speed. As Jim Rooney describes on that other forum, it's scary to do this but it's how to avoid overshoot.
Wow, nme, steeply diving while full upright? I don't know whether its me, my harness, or my glider, but I can't do this at all. Hands on down tubes?....
Steve - This only works with both hands on the control bar and never with hands on the downtubes, even if it's one up and one down.
I must admit I commonly use a similar technic for narrow beach landings ( high tide) to turn & finally flare into wind. Both of my hands high on the DTs for maximum drag, excellent control & ready to flare when needed. U2 lands good every time, credit due to the designer for its great landing characteristics.
Wow, nme, steeply diving while full upright? I don't know whether its me, my harness, or my glider, but I can't do this at all.
I don't know if it compares to Jonathan's glide angle, but I'm able to fly my wife's Discus 13 B fast by hanging from the down tubes, near the apex. However, the geometry of my 14 C is different in some way- and I'm not able to hang my weight far enough forward to dive the glider with high-hands. It's weird- and more than just a difference in loading... maybe rake. I'll have a speed probe soon, measure the difference.
(By the way Jonathan- the Pine Mountain to Lancaster landing rocked! That and the other slow-but-don't-flare were working solutions to dealing with yaw in the flare window. Thanx.)
.....I'm able to fly my wife's Discus 13 B fast by hanging from the down tubes, near the apex....
Mavi - Please don't use this technique. I has already killed at least one pilot and cost be not one but both downtubes on one XC landing. Please come in all the way to ground effect with both hands on the control bar and learn to make you hand transitions when bar pressure is near zero. You need both full lateral and full pitch control, which you will never get hanging from the downtubes. In don't share more than a fraction of the landing situations I've been through and have witnessed.
(By the way Jonathan- the Pine Mountain to Lancaster landing rocked! That and the other slow-but-don't-flare were working solutions to dealing with yaw in the flare window. Thanx.)
Good to know! Somewhere else I have a video where I land while I'm only 3/4 way through my base leg turn and it was a clean landing. This is nothing new. What we need on this forum is an Alaskan bush pilot. What I do is like laminar dune flying compared to what they do.
Unanswered
Highest rated...
Topics
