I have payed for my lessons at LMFP and am planning to learn there this summer. So...I am looking for a glider to use once I complete my training. I see that on the classifieds here there is a North Wing Freedom 170 for what looks like a good price. According to the North Wing site the Freedom is rated for H2-5. What do you all think about having a freedom as a first glider?
I know and fly with several guys over here who are on the Freedom as their first glider. I personally didn't, but went for a Fun. I wish I'd listened and got the Freedom straight away. But better late then never. The new Freedom has just arrived and is waiting in the garage for this rain to quit so we can go fly. _________________ Paul S
Hang glider - Intermediate/H3
Private Pilot, IA
F2 190
Sting3 168
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It's probably best to wait unti you have actually taken lessons before you go out and buy a glider. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
You will get lots of varying opinions on the Freedom here, so I would suggest that you make sure you are getting advice from people that have actually flown the Freedom or started with a Freedom as you are considering. I wouldn't worry about buying a glider until you get your training wrapped up.
I started with a Freedom and loved it! I know others that have and love theirs. I have yet to hear anyone that owns one that hasn't loved the glider.
Focus on training and enjoy the process before you worry about getting a glider. When you have your H2 fly one and compare it to a Falcon before you make a decision. _________________ Wills Wing U2 160
"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
I wouldn't try to make that decision until after you're close to your mountain solo. Also, ask your instructors. If you're a fairly fast learner, then you may want the Freedom . If you find you're struggling a bit, you will be better off with the Falcon.
The Freedom is a sweet wing that launches and lands very easily. In smooth air, it flys by itself and is pure pleasure. But for a beginner, launch into rough air and it will show it's high performance breeding and slap you upside the head. I know cause my first cliff launch was in the Freedom after about 50 training hill flights (freedom) and 11 aerotows in a falcon (6 of those solo). It was early afternoon at Lookout and I was told I was going to get hit with "stuff". I might as well have been on a wild horse. Scared the crap out of me and it took a huge force of will and some very encouraging friends to go back up the next day during the evening glass off and do it again. That 2nd flight was a perfect flight but I won't ever forget the first one. I flew falcon 170's and 195's in rough air with no problem what so ever but the Freedom ain't no Falcon. It will PIO like a double surface and is easy to overcontrol especially if you are using the keel hang point. Get a used Falcon and put 25 hours on it and then order yourself a Freedom. _________________ Freedom 170 FR
I have payed for my lessons at LMFP and am planning to learn there this summer. So...I am looking for a glider to use once I complete my training.
I fly a Freedom 170 as my main wing, and have trained over a dozen pilots who had Freedoms as their first wing.
... HOWEVER ...
You should have this discussion with your Instructor after you have a few days on the training hill, so they have an idea of your abilities. They will take into account your weight, where you will be flying, what instructors/observers/mentors will be available to guide you. Since you will be training at Lookout, they will probably steer you away from the Freedom.
AIRTHUG wrote:
I don't like it as a first purchase glider. Just one guys opinion...
Have you flown one yet?
Bobfly wrote:
It will PIO like a double surface and is easy to overcontrol especially if you are using the keel hang point.
I think Bob meant kingpost hangpoint. The keel hangpoint along with the loosest crossbar haulback setting is where I start all H2 pilots for their first dozen or so flights on a Freedom, to avoid the PIO issue.
That said, based on what little I know of your situation, I would recommend you look for a Falcon 1 or 2.
Why?
Here are my assumptions, correct me if I am wrong.
- You will be taking this glider to China.
- China has few if any, developed HG sites.
- You will have few if any experienced pilots to guide you in China.
- Available LZs at many sites will be small
With so many things working against you, you will be better served with the most forgiving wing, no matter how much talent you have. I would not suggest anything with higher performance, including the Falcon 3. _________________ Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
Charles Lindbergh
You're right, Tom. I meant the kingpost hang point. My bad.
I might also say that throughout the training hill flights, the Freedom was far and away a more enjoyable experience then the Falcon although it's a very nice wing too. The flare window is very distinct and no steppers or 1 steppers were the norm. I love my wing. But I respect it too. _________________ Freedom 170 FR
I don't like it as a first purchase glider. Just one guys opinion...
Have you flown one yet?
No I have not... but I have seen this happen:
Bobfly wrote:
But for a beginner, launch into rough air and it will show it's high performance breeding and slap you upside the head.
I also haven't seen any confirmed performance advantage. A Falcon won the last single-surface comp. Why recommend a first purchase glider that can be harder to fly when there are better, cheaper, easier options available?
I went through the same dilemma recently. I bought the Falcon III 195. I never flew the Freedom, so flight was not compared. I love this thing. It is like a good dog. I have no fear that it may bite me.
Best of luck.
But for a beginner, launch into rough air and it will show it's high performance breeding and slap you upside the head.
A keel hang with the loose setting makes it a much more docile glider.
AIRTHUG wrote:
I also haven't seen any confirmed performance advantage.
I think the Coyote Howl Speed Gliding contest settled that question. I had never flown in a Speed Gliding contest, never flown that site, and was not heavy on the glider. My time set the course record by a good bit, and I was flying a conservatively.
Why recommend a first purchase glider that can be harder to fly when there are better, cheaper, easier options available?
Cheaper and easier yes. Better is subjective. As you can see by my recommendation in this case I think a Falcon may be better for Rico. For new pilots in other circumstances, I may recommend something different, if they are willing to spend the extra time on the training hill, and ease into the performance configurations. A Horizon, Freedom, or Malibu could be a better fit for them, and possibly delay the performance ladder climbing. _________________ Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization.
Charles Lindbergh
For a new pilot, how is easier NOT better? The last concern for a new pilot should be performance! What lesson is taught when instructors prioritize performance from the start? And we wonder why so many people are on wings beyond their abilities?
FMAN wrote:
AIRTHUG wrote:
I also haven't seen any confirmed performance advantage.
The Freedom has a higher aspect ratio than a Falcon, therefor has a slightly better glide. But you keep insisting to see data that Northwing isn't wanting provide. Competition amongst manufacturers is a good thing until it becomes unproductive. _________________ Fred Bickford
The Freedom has a higher aspect ratio than a Falcon, therefor has a slightly better glide.
I'm pretty sure there were some mid-90's gliders that were higher aspect than T2C's.... therefore they performed better?
Got any more facts? And by facts I don't mean hearsay or marketing hype
Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... I don't really care, other than people seem to think it's so blatant yet no one (IE the manufacturer) has backed it up with data. Either way, it's obviously not a huge difference.... so again, as a first purchase glider, why get anything but a less expensive AND easier to fly glider?
Again- one guys opinion. I said that from the start. You guys can voice yours... can't I voice mine? Especially after, when questioned, I back it up?
I'd get a good used SS glider put on the market within the last 10 years - fly it a bunch - keep it in good shape - then sell it for what you paid for it and get something new. By then you'll know just what sort of wing you'll want most and it will more likely fit your 'style' of flying. Style being contingent on all sorts of stuff:
1) where you fly most - ridge, thermal, LZ distance from launch, etc.
2) how often you fly
3) how much time you have when you do go flying (setup time issues)
We all want to get better and we want to get better quickly. Pushing the performance end too much without the experience just doesn't work all that well. It is what you can do with the glider you have not what the glider can do on a specifications sheet.
I sold my Falcon primarily to concentrate on getting wired into my Sport 2 and to be able to fly in stronger winds. But, I feel I'm a better pilot on the Falcon (can get it to turn when and how I want it to better than the Sport 2). If I didn't have summers off I would have kept the Falcon (I'll have the time to get jobs of practice in on the Sport 2 this summer - and hopefully feel as comfortable in it as I have felt with the Falcon).
Have fun on whatever you get! _________________ U2 160 • Chattaroy, WA - USA
I went through the same dilemma recently. I bought the Falcon III 195. I never flew the Freedom, so flight was not compared. I love this thing. It is like a good dog. I have no fear that it may bite me.
Best of luck.
They can all bite you. _________________ Wills Wing U2 160
"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
I went through the same dilemma recently. I bought the Falcon III 195. I never flew the Freedom, so flight was not compared. I love this thing. It is like a good dog. I have no fear that it may bite me.
Best of luck.
They can all bite you. _________________ Wills Wing U2 160
"Better to have a shorter life that is full of what you enjoy doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts
I'd say if you have a huge lz, you could do ok with a freedom, but the "power steering" could bite you, and take you out.
its important to slowly get used to the way a glider handles.
I never had a problem handling the freedom, but have flown a few bricks in the past (hp2fr)
you'd do best with a falcon, and as was mentioned, sell it for what you paid.
by the way, I've flown freedoms/falcons on the same day. the falcon is a great trainer, for sure!
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