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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
 #61 |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!)
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Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
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TomGalvin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3548
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: |
#62 |
| Nate wrote: |
Yeah, it is probably better just to stay at home  |
Especially since the last T2C crash I saw had my son and I diving for cover in the breakdown area. Another pilot was not so lucky and took a leading edge to the face.
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CAL
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Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 3464
Location: OGDEN, UT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
#63 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!) |
actually i knew the response i would get, but i am so amazed how well Wes is doing on his T2 which is the main reason for the post, i think it makes a big difference when ego doesn't get in the way of your decisions and anyone who knows Wes Knows that ego was not a part of the decision process
Dan M was right i wanted more of a response from Ryan, knowing that his post would be spot on.
when i flew his T2 he knew exactly what would happen i was out to prove him wrong but instead the opposite occurred
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danmoser
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Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Sandy, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
#64 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!) |
I tell ya, I get no respect.
My wife says she wants to have sex in the back seat of the car.
She wants me to drive.
_________________
Happy landings,
Dan Moser
Saturn 167, Predator 158, HES Cocoon, Bright Star SWIFT #37
Flying HGs (off & on) since 1975 |
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fly,surf,&ski
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
#65 |
| pjwings wrote: |
Kind of off topic, but in aviation, it seems like a good idea to tell it like it is. Is it wise to watch a scary looking landing or launch and then just smile at the pilot and act like all is well? I hope my friends would have the care to hold my feet to the fire if I start getting stupid or sloppy.
I'm a little less concerned that their delivery of the message be perfectly managed than I am that the message gets across. I think a lot of people are more sensitive about that kind of stuff than I am and may miss the content of the message if their ego gets bruised.  |
Personally I draw the line at H4 or not. I will try and help someone out if they are H3 or below.
I try to not even bother saying anything to H4's anymore no matter what their launch or landing looks likes. It's like talking to a brick wall.....
I see H4's with POOR cliff launch(way nose high) and top landing technique at Torrey alot. Luckily you can usually get away with sloppy launch technique there unless it's south....
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AIRTHUG
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
#66 |
Mr Moser had a very, very nice landing in his Predator on the North Side today in pretty tricky conditions. I hope people know I'm just busting his chops on here... he's a very experienced/accomplished pilot, and if I thought he was flying something he didn't have the skills for you can bet I'd have let him hear all about it already.
If there's one thing you can count on me for, it's to speak my mind. If I give you a compliment, you know I mean it. He did great landing today 
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Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
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funkyglider
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Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 26
Location: Vienna-Austria
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| Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: Funky17>>U2>>Z9/2012 |
#67 |
Hi to all out there,
just couple of my thoughts...
I got my new glider, the Laminar Z9 2012 some weeks ago and of course I'll keep my great U2 also. So why I bought the not really cheep Laminar?
I don't know if I'll fly competitions with it, but who knows...and no, I'm not mister world-champ (and never will be...well, as written, who knows  ) . I bought it because it's just the time for me, I want to try the world of topless gliders. And it really looks great, yes...There's no question if i need it or what for I want it...Wanted it, bought it...
I had a couple of really great flies with my funky and then with my U2. There was a time when I don't think of my landings on the funky 'cause I was suuuuch a perfekt pilot on the glider and everything went always sooooo perfekt and so and...well...one day it was just really good luck...nothing happened, but it was close, even for the Funky...
The really deep respect for the landing returned and never went away again.
The Z9 needs more attention at the landing, for sure, IMHO.
Does the new topless glider makes me a better pilot? Well, I think, every single flight gives me something to experience, to learn for the next one...if one is willing to take the lesson...
For me I may say, it's not really the glider, it's every single flight that could make me a better pilot.
And I looooove going around the great mountains in Austria with my glider, what glider ever...
Greets to all
Alex
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Seedwings Funky 17
WW U2 160
Icaro Laminar 2012
Woody Valley Tenax 3 MR
Icaro 4-fight grid
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CAL
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 3464
Location: OGDEN, UT
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:50 am Post subject: |
#68 |
| danmoser wrote: |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!) |
I tell ya, I get no respect.
My wife says she wants to have sex in the back seat of the car.
She wants me to drive.
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none of my post had any lack of respect for anyone, especially you, you are a very competent pilot love flying with you Dan
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aeroexperiments
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Willamette valley, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:17 am Post subject: PIO/ other oscillations |
#69 |
| deeprecon1 wrote: |
2. Got a sport2 found out what PIO was all about |
Really?
I keep hearing from 2 local newer pilots how they feel a little less comfortable on their Sport 2's than on their Falcons, somethning for experienced pilots to keep in mind when councelling newbies, a Falcon is really like a glider with a glider with built-in training wheels and the newbies really are safer on it for their first season.
One thing is for sure, the PIO you experienced in the Sport 2 is TRUE pio, pilot-induced, facilitated by the glider's different response times (specifically, the more noticeable lag in responding to roll inputs, compared to Falcon?) but not inherently sustained by the glider on its own.
In contrast I've flown some gliders, like my kingposted '02 Laminar, that had a true self-sustaining oscillation mode that didn't need pilot inputs of any kind to keep it going, once the oscillation was started by a little random bump of turbulence, or a pilot input, etc. Never a real problem to damp this out except on tow, the glider was always a handful on tow in rough air, so darn "skatey" yaw-wise and roll-wise, wanting to get into yaw-roll oscillation, SO much nicer to tow other gliders like Aeros Stealth (topless), Falcon, Sport 2, or any other glider that pilots recommend as towing "like it is on rails", probably pretty much any current glider out there.
Steve |
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aeroexperiments
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Willamette valley, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: sideslip dynamics |
#70 |
| CAL wrote: |
going from a U2 from a S2 is painless, in fact i think it lands easier than a S2, it seem to level much easier in ground effect, the only real surprise was when i made a slipping turn with the U2 it fell out of the sky, if you make a low turn on a U2 it best be a coordinated turn |
I don't think there is any such thing as "coordinated" vs "uncoordinated" turns in hang gliders in the traditional aviation sense (non-slipping versus slipping). But I do think that some gliders are more prone to a dynamic where if you pull in the bar as you are rolling into the turn, you get a substantial increase in roll rate even with no increase in the amount of roll control input you are giving, and before you know it the glider is at a steeper bank angle than you planned, along with (naturally) a high sink rate and high airspeed.
A careful look at sideslip suggests that it is pretty much determined by roll rate, for example an aggressive roll from wings-level into a thermal turn along with a normal pitch "coordination" input to hold the nose up would have about the same amount of sideslip as the accelerating, diving dynamic described above, if the roll rate was similar. However in some gliders by pulling in at the same time as you shift hard to the side, you can get roll rates that are substantially higher than you would see while using a more normal "coordination" technique. These high roll rates are accompanied by unusual amounts of slip.
Slip is best determined by looking at a yaw string, either in real-time or with a video recorder. A diving, falling sensation indicates that the lift vector is "too small" for the bank angle and the glider is diving and accelerating in response. This is completely independent of sideslip-- this accelerating dive can happen during a slip (pilot pulls in and rolls hard into turn), and this accelerating dive can also occur without any slip (pilot holds glider at constant bank angle and abruptly pulls in the bar, making the nose drop abruptly and the airspeed rise rapidly.)
Steve |
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aeroexperiments
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Willamette valley, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:37 am Post subject: |
#71 |
| fly,surf,&ski wrote: |
Personally I draw the line at H4 or not. I will try and help someone out if they are H3 or below.
I try to not even bother saying anything to H4's anymore no matter what their launch or landing looks likes. It's like talking to a brick wall.....
I see H4's with POOR cliff launch(way nose high) and top landing technique at Torrey alot. Luckily you can usually get away with sloppy launch technique there unless it's south....
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That's sad to hear. A lot of California sites require H-4, don't they, so I guess no one at these sites is ever going to be getting any constructive critiques.
I hope the pilots who share the air with me will let me know when I am screwing up, always!
Steve |
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aeroexperiments
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Willamette valley, OR
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
#72 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!) |
Well, Swift has nothing to do with hang glider ladder climbing, it's not a hang glider!
Steve |
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Paul H
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Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 2184
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
#73 |
A few sites, not a lot.
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U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
Last edited by Paul H on Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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danmoser
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Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Sandy, Utah
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: |
#74 |
| CAL wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| danmoser wrote: |
I have been guilty of that overly enthusiastic "ladder climbing" myself over the years. |
Says the guy that just went from a Sting to a Predator, and also just bought a Swift
(I think THIS is more like what Cal was hoping for!) |
I tell ya, I get no respect.
My wife says she wants to have sex in the back seat of the car.
She wants me to drive.
|
none of my post had any lack of respect for anyone, especially you, you are a very competent pilot love flying with you Dan |
Of course, Cal.. you're just too nice of a guy to show disrespect...
My post was a feeble attempt at Rodney Dangerfield humor.
Let's go flying soon !!
_________________
Happy landings,
Dan Moser
Saturn 167, Predator 158, HES Cocoon, Bright Star SWIFT #37
Flying HGs (off & on) since 1975 |
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danmoser
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 276
Location: Sandy, Utah
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: Re: sideslip dynamics |
#75 |
| aeroexperiments wrote: |
| CAL wrote: |
going from a U2 from a S2 is painless, in fact i think it lands easier than a S2, it seem to level much easier in ground effect, the only real surprise was when i made a slipping turn with the U2 it fell out of the sky, if you make a low turn on a U2 it best be a coordinated turn |
I don't think there is any such thing as "coordinated" vs "uncoordinated" turns in hang gliders in the traditional aviation sense (non-slipping versus slipping). But I do think that some gliders are more prone to a dynamic where if you pull in the bar as you are rolling into the turn, you get a substantial increase in roll rate even with no increase in the amount of roll control input you are giving, and before you know it the glider is at a steeper bank angle than you planned, along with (naturally) a high sink rate and high airspeed.
A careful look at sideslip suggests that it is pretty much determined by roll rate, for example an aggressive roll from wings-level into a thermal turn along with a normal pitch "coordination" input to hold the nose up would have about the same amount of sideslip as the accelerating, diving dynamic described above, if the roll rate was similar. However in some gliders by pulling in at the same time as you shift hard to the side, you can get roll rates that are substantially higher than you would see while using a more normal "coordination" technique. These high roll rates are accompanied by unusual amounts of slip.
Slip is best determined by looking at a yaw string, either in real-time or with a video recorder. A diving, falling sensation indicates that the lift vector is "too small" for the bank angle and the glider is diving and accelerating in response. This is completely independent of sideslip-- this accelerating dive can happen during a slip (pilot pulls in and rolls hard into turn), and this accelerating dive can also occur without any slip (pilot holds glider at constant bank angle and abruptly pulls in the bar, making the nose drop abruptly and the airspeed rise rapidly.)
Steve |
A flex wing can indeed slip in a turn, although I lack a complete understanding of why and how. Some flexwings, especially high aspect ratio wings with anhedral, seem to require high siding your body -- that is, applying a slight "roll out" command -- to maintain a coordinated turn. I'm learning the Predator requires this to a noticeable degree. Not having flown a U2 or T2 yet, I can't say whether these wings also require high siding, but I suspect they do.
I do know from thermalling sailplanes that a "high sticking" technique works well in maintaining a low sink rate turn. You climb better applying a slight roll-out command while kicking the rudder into the turn. This effect stems from the large difference in airspeed between the inside and outside wing tips in a turn, so the effect is magnified in aircraft with larger spans and/or slower airspeeds.. such as sailplanes and hang gliders. When flying shorter span, higher speed airplane, this effect is not noticeable.
Thanks for your post, Steve.. it has aroused my curiosity to understand it better. Next time I fly my HG, I'm putting on a yaw string.
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Happy landings,
Dan Moser
Saturn 167, Predator 158, HES Cocoon, Bright Star SWIFT #37
Flying HGs (off & on) since 1975 |
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Wonder Boy
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posts: 1281
Location: Spokane WA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Moving to a topless makes a better pilot |
#76 |
| CAL wrote: |
Wes moved up to a topless glider before he perfected his landings on a U2, we went to Marshall and after a great flight on his T2, he appeared to have somewhat of a bad landing all to familiar with topless gliders, to our surprise even took out a DT.
as we where changing out his DT he made a comment alright that is enough i am going to get it right,
that evening we went to launch it was dead calm, we all launched which left Wes feeling sick to his stomach knowing he would have to land in no wind.
i launched and landed first, then came the moment Wes had worried about, it was time to land, we all gathered around to watch the carnage as we all do when a topless glider comes in
to our surprise he came in with a great approach and landed perfect, to this day he has always had great landings. on his forgiving U2 he didn't need good technique, he knows on his T2 he needs to be perfect, hence with this attitude makes him a better pilot, he is flying better then i have ever seen him fly on any other glider
so there are times when moving up makes you better ! |
IMO
If anyone put in the extra concentration & focus to landing whatever glider they are flying, their landings would get better.
Complacency sets in when flying something for awhile. You know what to expect.. or so you think & you get lazy.
My thoughts anyway.
Mike
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Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.
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fly,surf,&ski
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Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
#77 |
| aeroexperiments wrote: |
| fly,surf,&ski wrote: |
Personally I draw the line at H4 or not. I will try and help someone out if they are H3 or below.
I try to not even bother saying anything to H4's anymore no matter what their launch or landing looks likes. It's like talking to a brick wall.....
I see H4's with POOR cliff launch(way nose high) and top landing technique at Torrey alot. Luckily you can usually get away with sloppy launch technique there unless it's south....
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That's sad to hear. A lot of California sites require H-4, don't they, so I guess no one at these sites is ever going to be getting any constructive critiques.
I hope the pilots who share the air with me will let me know when I am screwing up, always!
Steve |
Don't worry Steve there are still plenty of pilots who give UNSOLICITATED critique/breakdown to H4's& H5's here in California. I leave that to the Ryans of the world that don't mind being told to fuk off....
(I work in sales and get enough of that at work)
On the other hand I prefer to save MOST of my comments for an audience who MIGHT actually listen and learn something...
(even then it sometimes never sinks in. EX: AOA issues at LMFP launch)
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aeroexperiments
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 968
Location: Willamette valley, OR
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| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: Re: sideslip dynamics |
#78 |
| danmoser wrote: |
A flex wing can indeed slip in a turn, although I lack a complete understanding of why and how. Some flexwings, especially high aspect ratio wings with anhedral, seem to require high siding your body -- that is, applying a slight "roll out" command -- to maintain a coordinated turn. I'm learning the Predator requires this to a noticeable degree. Not having flown a U2 or T2 yet, I can't say whether these wings also require high siding, but I suspect they do.
I do know from thermalling sailplanes that a "high sticking" technique works well in maintaining a low sink rate turn. You climb better applying a slight roll-out command while kicking the rudder into the turn. This effect stems from the large difference in airspeed between the inside and outside wing tips in a turn, so the effect is magnified in aircraft with larger spans and/or slower airspeeds.. such as sailplanes and hang gliders. When flying shorter span, higher speed airplane, this effect is not noticeable. |
* The need to high-side, is not an indication that the wing is slipping
* In sailplanes, if you follow "conventional" technique of giving enough inside rudder to completely center the yaw string, you have to high-side (give outside aileron stick) MORE than if you follow a more enlightened technique of letting the yaw string ride a little (10 degrees?) to the outside. If you let the yaw string ride a little to the outside, you need less inside rudder-- in same cases almost none-- and you also need noticeably less outside aileron.
* The reasons that allowing the yaw string to ride a bit to the outside is a more "enlightened" method, include--
a) less aileron and rudder deflection, so less drag from aileron and rudder deflections
b) yaw string is way up at nose, relative wind is curved, if you want a yaw string close to the center of area of the aircraft (a bit behind CG?) to be centered to minimize drag, then the yaw string at the nose must blow a bit to the outside, and a yaw string at the tail must blow a bit to the inside. This is even more true if the fuselage is really streamlined and skinny but the vertical fin is large-- which moves the center of area further back behind the CG than if we have a more slab-sided fuselage.
Of course in hang gliders we don't have 3-axis controls so we don't get to pick what yaw string deflection we want....
But fly with that yaw string and we'll talk some more! I could make a prediction as to what you will find,...
Steve |
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