Lifting the glider would have gotten you off the ground a couple of steps sooner which wasn't critical at those sites.
i don't follow- how does lifting the glider make it/you go any faster
like ryan i rarely get my strap tight before launch.....
Keeping the control bar higher allows for longer strides and keeps it from hitting brush and other stuff on the ground.
i have never once heard of ANYONE whacking their legs on the basetube because it was curtailing their stride. yes if there is brush i can see the benefit of lifting the glider higher
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For those pilots who might be vertically challenged that can make a big difference. It can assist the pilot from having the glider get too far in front when they are taking off since they can remain upright and not get into the bad habit of leaning forward to give them running room. It sure looks like that could have been a problem for Ernie during his ill fated launch.
im 5-10....not terribly tall, not terribly short
this video has two takeoffs.....one at the beginning one at ~1:30.....no wind flat slope (no tall bushes)...I'm flying a big t2c(its my dads who is 6'-2").....i weigh 160 lbs......the down tubes are noticeably longer then on my t2c 144.
i start with the hang strap loose, i run and never come remotely close to having to curtail my stride
i just don't see how the glider getting in front of you is related to whether your hang strap is tight or not prior to launching
when the glider gets in front of you.....then you are doing the whole lean forward, hang on the down tubes act....and that's when you are going to bounce the base tube off the ground
Nobody usually tends to whack their shins because they take have to take smaller steps with that obstruction in front of them although I have seen it happen. Why give yourself a limitation like that?
It can be part of the casual chain of events that leads to an incident just like in the video. Blown launches and crashes are rarely caused by just one thing. That's why it's important to make sure things go right from the beginning.
I personally believe that beginnning a launch with the hang strap already tight gives you immediate feedback and control of the wing without having to wait for it to rise up while you are runnng. I do it without having too tight a grip on the down tubes and I have excellent feedback from my wing during the entire launch. I believe that the method of launching with the glider resting on the shoulders is a hold over from a pilot's bunny hill days. If it works for somebody and they can do it every time they launch without problems then it works for them. I just believe that there is a better method available and choose to use it. It's worked for me at every site I have ever flown in all conditions that I have flown in and without any problems (except for a launch cart whle aerotowing, of course). There will always be alternative ways of doing things. The best is whatever one works best for you, but you should keep an open mind about trying new or different techniques.
Looking at your video I can see how you lean forward and let the glider get a little ways out in front of you to give yourself running room. That was the technique that Ernie used in his video. It was the first link in the chain. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
From a student perspective:
1.Someone please clean up that launch site!! Looks like an obstacle course.
2.Hard to launch when the base bar is dragging on the ground.
3. Why does everyone want to jump right into the prone position?
4.Loose strap, tight strap; one potato two potato
5. Anyone got a chainsaw? Seems like that tree could sacrifice its life for the cause.
From a student perspective:
1.Someone please clean up that launch site!! Looks like an obstacle course.
2.Hard to launch when the base bar is dragging on the ground.
3. Why does everyone want to jump right into the prone position?
4.Loose strap, tight strap; one potato two potato
5. Anyone got a chainsaw? Seems like that tree could sacrifice its life for the cause.
1. Are you referring to the Hough launch? It's not really that bad for a mountain site. Not all flying sites have nice, wide, clear launches. You have the well developed sites like Laguna and Horse and even Blossom, but a lot of other sites aren't quite as nice.
2. Exactly right.
3. Going prone too early is not a good thing, it's one of many different types of bad habits that pilots can develope.
4. Not exactly.
5. That tree wouldn't have been a problem if the pilot had a good launch. It was his poor effort that caused him to be so low. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
Not sure about the strap issue. At my level of training (8 solos) I am more focused on a strong run and glider pitch. In retrospect it seems like the strap goes tight on the first or second step. Haven't done any zero wind take offs though.
OK, save the tree, just put a red flag on the top.
[There will always be alternative ways of doing things. The best is whatever one works best for you, but you should keep an open mind about trying new or different techniques.
Looking at your video I can see how you lean forward and let the glider get a little ways out in front of you to give yourself running room. That was the technique that Ernie used in his video. It was the first link in the chain.
I lean forward because Im accelerating.....have anyone stand and then tell them to run....without exception they will lean forward
ernies technique and my technique are quite different....
my body is IN FRONT of the glider CG based on the location of the mains(everything excluding one leg is forward of this line), my shoulders are thru the frame, im leaning forward..yes...by my feet are underneath my hips which is underneath the mains
contrast that with ernies
his shoulders are behind the downtubes
his hips are infront of his feet, the glider is in front of his hips....hes well behind the glider, not even his head is forward of this line
i drew a line verticle in each frame....ernies is based off the trees in the background which i think we all agree are vertical (I flipped his image to make it match mine......
the only thing in common between the two is a slack hangstrap(edit: and a topless glider and no wind)
Not sure about the strap issue. At my level of training (8 solos) I am more focused on a strong run and glider pitch. In retrospect it seems like the strap goes tight on the first or second step. Haven't done any zero wind take offs though.
OK, save the tree, just put a red flag on the top.
Those of us who advocate the strap tight method of launching will point out that the loose grip that allows the glider to slide up as you launch will keep you from having as direct an input from the wing as you would by being better connected to it and it can make it harder to maintain the correct AOA in more difficult launch conditions. Strap tight also keeps the control frame higher off the ground keeping the control bar clear of ground obstructions and allows you to have more leg room for running without having to let the wing get in front of you.
Those who advocate the glider resting on your shoulders method will point out that it allows a looser grip during the launch and claim it allows better feedback from the glider.
There will always be pilots on both sides of this issue just like any other one.
At this point in your flying you need to concentrate on what your instructor is teaching you. Take these online discussions as exactly that, a discussion. If you have questions about something you read here, ask your instructor about it. As you progress in your skills you will make more decisions on your own and then you will have a better informed basis to think about them. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
ernies technique and my technique are quite different....
my body is IN FRONT of the glider CG based on the location of the mains(everything excluding one leg is forward of this line), my shoulders are thru the frame, im leaning forward..yes...by my feet are underneath my hips which is underneath the mains
contrast that with ernies
his shoulders are behind the downtubes
his hips are infront of his feet, the glider is in front of his hips....hes well behind the glider, not even his head is forward of this line
i drew a line verticle in each frame....ernies is based off the trees in the background which i think we all agree are vertical (I flipped his image to make it match mine......
the only thing in common between the two is a slack hangstrap
In your video it appears that the AOA of your wing is quite high. You're pushing the glider, not pulling it, off the hill. That's ok at a benign site like the sled, but not so much at other, more demanding sites. It puts you that much closer to the edge.
Ernie's video launch shows your type of technique at it's worst, when things go terribly wrong. It's the causal chain of events. One thing going wrong at the beginning cascades to the final result we see in the video. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
i would like to point out that my hands never move up or down on the downtubes
That's true, but too many others do let theirs move when they launch like that. I would even guess that some or a lot of them don't even realize it. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
You're pushing the glider, not pulling it, off the hill. That's ok at a benign site like the sled, but not so much at other, more demanding sites. It puts you that much closer to the edge.
what part of that picture says "push"?
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Ernie's video launch shows your type of technique at it's worst, when things go terribly wrong. It's the causal chain of events. One thing going wrong at the beginning cascades to the final result we see in the video.
ernies video shows that the glider getting in front of you is no good, it has little if anything to do with the technique I use, or the technique ryan uses, or Fpeels friend
just because there is 1 thing in common does not mean the techniques are the same any more then putting a red ferrari next to a red pinto relates the two _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
You're pushing the glider, not pulling it, off the hill. That's ok at a benign site like the sled, but not so much at other, more demanding sites. It puts you that much closer to the edge.
what part of that picture says "push"?
Quote:
Ernie's video launch shows your type of technique at it's worst, when things go terribly wrong. It's the causal chain of events. One thing going wrong at the beginning cascades to the final result we see in the video.
ernies video shows that the glider getting in front of you is no good, it has little if anything to do with the technique I use, or the technique ryan uses, or Fpeels friend
just because there is 1 thing in common does not mean the techniques are the same any more then putting a red ferrari next to a red pinto relates the two
In the first video you just posted, yes, it does look like a high AOA. I never said your launch in the video you posted ealier was "mushing", just that appeared to be a high AOA. I did use the word "appear" because we all know that the angle of a video change do a lot to change how things look, but that doesn't seem to apply here. Let's not complicate things by introducing a word into the discussion that I never mentioned.
You're not pulling the glider with the hang strap so how else would you describe your launch other than by pushing the glider? It's one of those basic skills things, some of us were taught to launch a glider by towing/pulling it with the hang strap and controlling pitch with our hands and arms while other's weren't. It goes back to the tight strap versus loose strap controversy.
I just thought of an interesting thing to look at. In all of the bad launch videos posted, how many pilots in them are using which method?
Your basic technique of hang strap loose and the glider resting on your shoulders is the same as Ernie's in his now infamous launch video launch. That fact that his went terribly wrong from a poor application of that technique doesn't change that. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
In the first video you just posted, yes, it does look like a high AOA.
- are you referring to Nov 27th flights?, if so that launch is viewed from an observers standpoint, and then repeated from the keel, I personally do not see high AoA......
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I never said your launch in the video you posted ealier was "mushing", just that appeared to be a high AOA. I did use the word "appear" because we all know that the angle of a video change do a lot to change how things look, but that doesn't seem to apply here. Let's not complicate things by introducing a word into the discussion that I never mentioned.
okay- sorry i tend to correlate the two
Quote:
You're not pulling the glider with the hang strap so how else would you describe your launch other than by pushing the glider?
...we can agree that there is clearly no load in the hangstrap for the first couple steps......
the glider starts resting on the outside of my shoulders.....and my shoulders initiate the "push" meanwhile my hands are pulling backward, between these two points of contact i can control the pitch- i have heard much talk about "pulling the glider with the hangstrap" no video i have ever seen shows anyone actually capable of accomplishing this feat (having the carabiner behind the attachment point to the body)- tension in the hangstrap yes, but the best I have ever seen is the hangstrap pointed straight down, pulling the glider directly down- the lift vector the glider produces pulls it forward
Quote:
It's one of those basic skills things, some of us were taught to launch a glider by towing/pulling it with the hang strap and controlling pitch with our hands and arms while other's weren't. It goes back to the tight strap versus loose strap controversy.
I would love to see a video capture/still showing ANYONE actually doing this.......
Quote:
I just thought of an interesting thing to look at. In all of the bad launch videos posted, how many pilots in them are using which method?
i think if you did that you would find the things in common to be
weak runs, hand transitions that pop the nose
Quote:
Your basic technique of hang strap loose and the glider resting on your shoulders is the same as Ernie's in his now infamous launch video launch. That fact that his went terribly wrong from a poor application of that technique doesn't change that.
in much the same way that both my college diving and Greg Louganis had the same basic technique of going to the end of the board and jumping off into the water _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
i want to point out again that any technique if executed incorrectly can end badly
i also want to say I have nothing against launching with a tight hangstrap, i personally find it awkward in no wind
once there is enough wind to "float the glider" I will often launch with a tight strap
one thing i think is inarguable........its impossible to launch unhooked if you technique requires a tight strap prior to your first step _________________ TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil!
I just thought of an interesting thing to look at. In all of the bad launch videos posted, how many pilots in them are using which method?
i think if you did that you would find the things in common to be
weak runs, hand transitions that pop the nose
I have no doubts about that. What contributes to those issues is what interests me. Air speed and AOA are pretty important things when you are attempting to fly away from the hill. _________________ Paul H
U2 160 USHPA # 51178 KE7VOG
H4, FL, AT, PL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C, CL, AWCL, 360, HA,
USN ret. A & P mechanic
From a student perspective:
1.Someone please clean up that launch site!! Looks like an obstacle course.
2.Hard to launch when the base bar is dragging on the ground.
3. Why does everyone want to jump right into the prone position?
4.Loose strap, tight strap; one potato two potato
5. Anyone got a chainsaw? Seems like that tree could sacrifice its life for the cause.
1. Are you referring to the Hough launch? It's not really that bad for a mountain site. Not all flying sites have nice, wide, clear launches. You have the well developed sites like Laguna and Horse and even Blossom, but a lot of other sites aren't quite as nice.
2. Exactly right.
3. Going prone too early is not a good thing, it's one of many different types of bad habits that pilots can develope.
4. Not exactly.
5. That tree wouldn't have been a problem if the pilot had a good launch. It was his poor effort that caused him to be so low.
1. I agree - Hough is pretty easy. Ernie's launch "technique" made it look tough. Country club launches and LZ's are few and far between - welcome to the real world of HG!
2. So, lift the basetube higher. The comment applies to any site - not just Hough.
3. Yep - poor "technique" will bite you at all sites.
4. I have mixed feelings about loose/tight strap. I used to launch tight consistently when I flew flexes. Now I use loose with the rigid and it works great, too.
5. That tree is so far below, and off to the right - it took that bad of a launch (a stalled dive) to reach it. I've launched Hough many times and never seen anyone come within 100' of it.
..., some of us were taught to launch a glider by towing/pulling it with the hang strap and controlling pitch with our hands and arms...
.
That would be me for sure. In this process, If all is well, the wing begins to fly off my shoulders as I lean forward and the down tubes slide gently up through my hands. The strap tightens as I am now in the RUN part of my launch sequence and I fly the wing away from the hill.
This is of course all fine with a nice launch pad. Add in cliffs and wind conditions and this method changes...
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4. I have mixed feelings about loose/tight strap. I used to launch tight consistently when I flew flexes. Now I use loose with the rigid and it works great, too.
Everybody should have mixed feelings- like any technique, when to employ is contextual and should be informed by intimate experience. Naturally, anyone unfamiliar with a method will have a limited, and likely prejudicial, perspective. I use either as the circumstance recommends. I appreciate the qualities of either- but, like turning left or right, conditions and need dictate. I was taught both techniques- and spent a good deal of time running with the glider on flat ground, "tractorring"; any student should be able to do as much, and those who can't are definitely marginalized. When to not use a tight strap launch method shouldn't be a legacy of incompetence- if it is, you have a dangerous deficiency that needs address.
For sure, often less comfort with my degree of control with the high strap tight posture informs my decisions- as does my developed vocabulary with other postures. Really, the choice of technique is so dependent on context that a meaningfully comprehensive discussion can't be had without it- anything less is arbitrary and "best" label not particularly useful. Anyone who holds to exclusively using only one technique is not equipped to speak credibly to another- supposition only takes one so far. ( I'm reminded of bi-wingal pilots talking with "experts" who have little to no experience with a hang or para; moving from superficial to meaningful dialog is an impossible challenge to surmount when "best" has been pre-determined . More farcical still are para and hang pilots speaking with authority about each others launch technique!)
Renmoore, was your change in method all about weight initially? What have you sacrificed, and what have you gained? Going back to a flex, would you likely revert, or would there be some adaptation?
4. I have mixed feelings about loose/tight strap. I used to launch tight consistently when I flew flexes. Now I use loose with the rigid and it works great, too.
Remmoore, was your change in method all about weight initially? What have you sacrificed, and what have you gained? Going back to a flex, would you likely revert, or would there be some adaptation?
Well, it's not about the weight - even though my wing weighs 105 lbs. I'm plenty big enough to deal with that. Really, my change was about the small size of the rigid control frame. I have very broad shoulders, and the small rigid control frame allows me to easily "drive" the glider's AOA without the hangstrap apex being a pivot point. I get excellent control because my shoulders won't fit through the control frame until the wing is flying. From there on, there's no difference in my launch technique.
I can't think of any "sacrafice", but there are nuances to launching a rigid that don't exist for flexes. If I went back to a flex, I expect I would go back to the "tight strap" technique - which was how I was trained.
Everyone, especially Ryan, I was out of pocket for a couple of days and unable to add to the discussion as originally intended. Glad to see it was lively, even though I did stir the pot and let the fireworks start without participating: yeah, I was a troll, even if unintentionally.
Paul defends the tight strap perspective well (Thanks, Paul). I'll add to his description the concept that what we're talking about is the fifth grade concept of a basic machine. Beams and fulcrums. With a tight strap launch the hang point is the fulcrum and remains so throughout the launch cycle. In a loose strap launch the shoulders are the fulcrum UNTIL THE GLIDER STARTS FLYING. Once the straps tighten the fulcrum changes to the hang point.
Managing that transition can be done successfully as demonstrated by the videos of Ryan and Jason's launches. I know Jason well enough to know he is quite athletic; he's one of the more physically gifted people I know. The pictures I've seen of Ryan suggest similar physical attributes. My smart friend referenced previously was an engineer with a pile of accolades and patents. He was also an accomplished rock climber. The angles of dangles related to flying came to him fairly naturally. The three of them share an athleticism, and I suspect a gift of analysis, a lot of pilots don't start with and my never develop.
Recognizing the difference between "the gifted" and the rest of us is the primary source of my belief that lifting the glider prior to launching is the best technique. Sure, it was drilled into my head by my instructors, mentors and flying buddies. But that is true of a lot of things that I no longer believe. The reason tight strap launches work is quite simple; there is no transition. It's so easy that even I can do it and my focus when things are going to hell in a hand basket are, well, quick to get blurry. No math, no analysis, no adjustment on the fly, just lift, set the nose angle and go. It works well for the stupid and slow to comprehend. Like me.
We can rehash what's been discussed already, but post #54, picture #3 shows what I had said previously, "His launch run is aggressive, but as he leans into it he is also lowering the glider." His hand positions on the down tubes do not change. The glider is not lifting, so he is essentially setting the glider on the ground by leaning forward. Pulling in may have even exacerbated the problem. Instinctively Ernie may have recognized that, but there's no way to really know.
For some pilots launches are not like video with cognitive frame by frame events. Oh, there are frames, but they're not 30fps and the gaps between are blurry. So it's likely that even Ernie might not be able to give complete insight into what happened. Still, had he lifted the glider high before starting his launch run he would have a better chance of getting off the hill. At very least it would have created more margin for error.
Remember that Ernie, like many of us, does not have Jason or Ryan's athleticism, (or youth or having started flying at so young an age) so need every advantage available. A lot of pilots start as old farts and have to depend on technique to fill in where young legs and superior reflexes can make up the difference.
Subsequently, Ryan, that was the source of my comment about training. I've seen the "loose strap, let it rise up" method being intentionally taught. Then when the less capable of those students advance and become part of the community there are more than a few that need to be retaught how to launch. I wasn't intending to diss your skills as a teacher. But if you are professing the technique for advanced pilots it's an easy extrapolation to that is what you're teaching. Correct me if I'm in error.
BTW, since you tossed it out there I'm a H-5, too. Around here that and $10 will get you a beer. The H-V gets to buy the six-pack and the other five bottles are scarfed up by the H-IVs with more experience that couldn't be bothered with chasing merit badges. Been there, done that way more than I care to admit!
Have to add: NME THAT was F'N funny! _________________ "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space." - Anonymous
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