[DurbanFlyboy]

Hi all! I think this is a concern for XC pilots, and even those simply ridge soaring. How many pilots have had near misses or scares with ignorant pilots flying powered aircraft, who nonchalantly cruise past at 120 knots, oblivious to the fact that we have as much right to the air as they do?

1992. A good ridge-soaring day at Signal Hill Cape Town. I remember it was a Sunday afternoon, with several pilots airborne getting high and having fun in the GFA (General Flying Area), Out of nowhere looms a Varig 747, engines screaming and belching black gunk, missing a couple of pilots by a few hundred horizontal meters. Later we phoned ATC at Cape Town airport to report the incident. Turns out that side of Table Mountain is blind to radar, and the Varig pilots were renowned for "doing their own thing"!

The point is, and it's a very valid and distressing point, why aren’t hang glider pilots required to fly on air-bands, and indeed, issued with a specific frequency? Not only are we entitled to fly as much as anybosy else, but we should be also able to warn other aircraft in the vicinity of our presence. Am I right?
I am getting back into the fray of free flight XC, and find out on the comms side, I am required to fly on frequency 141.000 or 141.625 Mhz FM. Apparently SAHPA has the license to operate on these frequencies. I am permitted to also fly and communicate with other air traffic provided I have a restricted radio license, which I have. So now I research all the possibilities to get an all-in-one radio, and we get to the really crazy part of it. In order for me to fly XC responsibly through the GFA, I need THREE transceivers! I need a Yaesu VR 7R transceiver just to monitor ALL frequencies (141.000 / 141.625 MHz FM, and air-bands), but I cannot broadcast on either from this transceiver. I need another radio to transmit on 141.000 and 141.625 MHz FM and ANOTHER to transmit on air-band!
My personal opinion is an XC pilot has quite a bit on his hands without having to work 3 radios, and it’s a situation that should have never have arisen. It is an issue that should have been resolved years ago by the powers that be, such as the FAI.
The crux is, SURELY pilots should be talking to each other, above all from a safety aspect. What chance would a HG or PG have against heavy metal, and we have no chance to warn such aircraft anyway. , At the moment not, unless we burden ourselves with radio paraphernalia.

[Paul H]

I'm pretty sure that aircraft pilots don't want to have to listen to the normal amount of chatter that a lot of hang glider pilots do on the radio. It could definately interfere with ATC.

[Scott]

Be careful what you wish for.
There are those who would demand we cary very expensive mode C transponders if they had their way.
There are those who would just have us banned from any airspace they think might conflict with their operations.
We are a tiny-microscopic-minority up against well funded,mega corp,own the politicians and have lobbyists to sway the few they don't own with perks that cost more than 10 hangglider pilots yearly wages added together.
If we stand out and the magic "S" word is use...Safety,the word used to empty wallets and take away rights.....we will not be on the winning side.
It's best we find ways to not conflict with jumbo jets.Some jet jockys aren't happy about sharing the skies with a Cessna let alone a blade shaped white topped nearly invisible glider and the big money that pays for those jets see us as nothing more than a pest if they see us at all.

[Mavi Gogun]

[DurbanFlyboy]

Mixed feelings, it's not what I wish for. We have "basic flying rights", certainly here in Africa. The sky is not owned by anybody, it's regulated, and I want to fly responsibly and keep out of controlled airspace, air corridors, etc. The fuzzy area is GFA. What are the regulations regarding flying in the GFA in powered flying anyway? Is a radio compulsary? What I learnt was GFA is VFR, or Visual Flight Rules

The dilemma is if there is an incident where there is a mid-air, where a HG or PG gets creamed by a heavy, there will be a huge problem, especially if it could have been prevented by simple communications.

[Mavi Gogun]

[DurbanFlyboy]

[Dontsink]

[DurbanFlyboy]

"And what good would come out of being in radio contact?".


Read more: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=283043#283043#ixzz1vsoC6tpS
I understand your points of view, but I still believe we should be talking to LOCAL traffic. I dont want to talk with ATC or scheduled and routed commercial flights, I want to talk to the guys who are flying privately for recreation on a general flying frequency for the GFA, and in South Africa, that's normally 124.8. It's the unscheduled and sometimes uplanned private flights that concern me, some guy who flies out of a private airfield to take his friends sight seeing and decides to go over there and look at that mountain, or barnstorm.
So I suppose then I fly with 2 radios. 1 HG / PG,unit, the other to listen out in the GFA and have the the chance to warn unscheduled and recreational flights of our presence.

You ask what good will come out of it? A high performance HG front or rear-on is a difficult thing to see even in perfect light. The good that will come out of it is that I am aware of powered aircraft in the air and I can warn them of my presence, long before things get tight.

[Dontsink]

[DurbanFlyboy]

I shouldnt have mixed the subject of the Varig 747, sorry about that.

[ksykes]

If this an issue at a specific site. Why not talk with the airport where the traffic is coming from and work out a protocol to call them up on days when you fly.

This is done at several US sites where they are in close proximity to a busy airport. They then are aware and can notify traffic to be aware.

I really don't see being on an aircraft radio while hang gliding accomplishes much of anything except in very specific situations like towing out of an active airport.

[majurpain]

You want to talk to local traffic, an aviation handheld radio costs about $230 US or less, figgur out the local unicom/multicom/ATC situation (I don't know the rules in RSA or wherever you live) and listen in. Probably the less you talk the better. Even better might be to be a fly on the wall at local aviation meetings- again, the less said the better, and learn about local traffic patterns, etc... There are battery powered transponders, but good Lord, we REALLY don't want to go down that route.
Somebody brings up the point that hang gliders are nearly invisible (when not banking) and all kinds of bad things may start happening as posited above...
Just watch out, and recognize that when you try to start removing all (Exaggerating for effect I know, not what you suggested) risk, the cost will skyrocket and the rewards (free flight) will drop like a hang glider burdened with radios, antennas and batteries out the wazoo...

[aeroexperiments]

Durban, collision avoidance is not something that the hg community as a whole thinks is much of a priority. Otherwise, no manufacturer would dream of making a sail in a color scheme like I've seen lately--

Green below, kind of a light lime green, nice and bright when seen from below

But leading edges are grey

Top is that dark-tinted see-through stuff. Seen through that looking down, the undersurface becomes a dark foresty grey-green.

Seriously, this wing is so hard to see over dark forests, that the manufacturers should investigate the idea of selling the color scheme to the military.

Thermalling may be less of a problem, as you'll sometimes catch a flash of the undersurface from most angles, but in a ridge-soaring situation when the glider may be flying on a near-constant heading and may be constantly presenting the same aspect toward you-- watch out!

Even a simple thing like changing the leading edges to bright white would ensure that at least some significant amount of surface area is visible in bright contrast to a dark grey or grey-green background, as seen from above or head-on.


PS I do think that we'll all be required to have transponders soon. The explosive growth of drones will make the see-and-be-seen concept obsolete. Will be hard to resist the economic incentive to use drones more and more, as fuel prices continue to climb through the roof.

Steve

[Rick M]

[aeroexperiments]

True in theory; in practice the jet jockeys would rather be looking down at their instruments. They figure if they are on an IFR flight plan then screw the rules requiring them to SEE as well as to be seen, regardless of whether they are in IMC or VMC We all have our own favorite ways to break the rules. The jet jockeys like to not keep a good lookout when flying IFR in Visual Meteorological Conditions, while some other people I know like to go fly in clouds in hang gliders or paragliders, same difference. Steve

[Dontsink]

[macsux]

It's actually fairly difficult to spot conflicting traffic that is on a collision course, because two aircraft that are on in intersecting trajectory will appear stationary to each other, and simply appear to "grow" and not move against the background. Make it pretty difficult to see.

[tom emery]

I spent four years cruising my sailboat. I sailed it like every tanker and freighter was trying to run me down. Funny thing; off Key West one amost did.
While training at Crestline I heard a light aircraft. Then I saw it. Close.
Moral of the story: If you're the smallest, slowest thing in the sky, be aware...very aware.

[BBJCaptain]

Yes, see and avoid is the rule. The major problem is the massive difference in speed and closure rates. Also it is almost imposable to
see an aircraft of any type that is below you and with a ground speed of almost 0 in all of the ground clutter of different colors and shapes.

Unfortunately the human eye is not as sharp in detail as our feathered kin. We need to proceive movement in order to see another aircraft of
any type. The only way to do that is to constantly focus on small sections of the sky for a brief period of time and then move to the next
spot. We do not spot movement looking straight at an object as easily and we do with our peripheral vision. Get distracted by ATC with a
route or frequency change for 30/45 seconds ( happens all the time as much as 100 miles out) and the aircraft will have moved thru space as
much as 3 miles. When you add having to rebrief the arrival and the approach another 10 to 15 miles can go by.

This is the reason Jets are shuttled around in controlled airspace. If the controller has you vector you out of say the class B airspace for
any reason ( happens from time to time ) they always tell you that you are outside the Class B ( hey dummy I have no radar coverage
there) so you need to see and avoid while outside his airspace.

I fly into and out of BUR, VNY, SMO, ONT, SBD,( Southern California airports) all the time. I know where all the So Cal sites are and what
the wx is for the day and where to look. I only see gliders maybe 20% of the time. I have been trying to see Jono for yrs now and have had no luck.
I think all his videos are photo shopped to irritate Ryan

Bottom line is that anyone flying in and around airways, airport traffic areas and next to Class B, C,or D airspace needs to buy charts and
get very familiar with where to look for Heavy Metal at you local site and on any xc route you may plan to fly. After all FAR Pt 103 states
that we have to give way to everything else in the sky!!

If you are really concerned about collision avoidance then maybe this is for you.

http://www.zaon.aero/content/view/2/41/

Rolla