O.K folks, I need some good advice here. I am currently a weight shift Trike pilot and own a trike, but am considering switching to hang gliding.
Considering the cost of biennal flight reviews, annual inspections (damn FAA), fuel costs (4 gallons/ hr), maintenance costs, hangar fees... I think right now I,m paying between $40-$70/ hr to fly. (Holy badger balls Batman!) I definitely think a hang glider would be more cost effective and allow me the luxury of eating too. Of course I ultimately will have both once I can afford that, but for right now i can just afford one or the other (already come to the realization if poop ever becomes of value, I'll be constipated the rest of my life).
The Trike is nice, in that I can just roll it out of the hangar and take off. I can also do low flying, which is a blast, carry a terrified passenger, and I don't need to hike up mountains or have a chase vehicle try to find me afterwards. I also don't need wind, ridge lift or thermals.
On the flip side, hang gliding is a more peaceful, true religious experience, and is as close to flying like a bird as you can get. You can also fly hang gliders in conditions which would require seat material replacement in a trike (pucker factor). You can even do acro in hang gliders(you can only do acro, ONCE, in a trike, then you have to pay to replace the wing and get your parachute repacked.)
Decisions, decisions! What do you guys and gals think???
Thanks.
Nathan (in NW Montana)
Last edited by nwhiteafd on Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Fly a lighter trike and break it down ofter use- all of those peripheral expenses disappear.
nwhiteafd wrote:
I can also do low flying, which is a blast, carry a terrified passenger *snip*
The disposition voiced above hints that you may not be well suited to hang gliding, as risk assessment and management are key. The basic rule of flying is 'always have an LZ picked out'- not 'always have the next tree picked out.' If you can appreciate that distinction, you might have a future in unpowered flight.
nwhiteafd wrote:
You can also fly hang gliders in conditions which would require seat material replacement in a trike (pucker factor). You can even do acro in hang gliders(you can only do acro, ONCE, in a trike, then you have to pay to replace the wing and get your parachute repacked.)
You seem to misapprehend the capability of either craft. You should not expect to increase the range of flyable conditions switching to a hang glider; while neither craft is rated for aerobatics, some of either form are far better suited than others- what you have flown may have been particularly unrobust. Having been passenger in a trike playing chase-the-ace with a Dragonfly, I can attest to the airworthiness of that trike after a hammer-head stall and repeated wing-overs.
Hang gliding necessitates patience and impulse control. While some of your sunk costs may decrease, the time dedicated to each hour of flight will increase remarkably. It is an athletic undertaking, with far more intimate relationship to the air- it is more participatory; only occasionally will you be just pointing your wing in some direction and forgetting about it. I love that aspect- you may, too.
I'm VERY aware of rick assessment and management. I'm a private pilot airplane, sport pilot powered parachute and sport pilot trike. I also have my skydiving license, am former Army Special Forces, and currently work as a cop. I'm still alive only because I am VERY safety conscious and know the difference between taking calculated risks and taking chances.
When I fly my trike, I never fly over an area where I am not within glide of a good landing area. As far as low flying, I definitely don't fly as low as some of the trike videos you have probably seen, and I always check the area thoroughly before I do that. It is just fun flying along at a couple hundred feet and really getting to see the scenery. And the terrified passenge part was a weak attempt at at a joke, so lighten up. I take safety very seriously. I'm not the one doing hammer head stalls and wing overs in a trike. That far exceeds the operating limitations of trike wings, and is extremely dangerous.
What I was trying to say is that hang gliders seem more versatile and can be flown in conditions that you really don't want to fly a trike into (ie: wind, strong thermals...) I have no aspirations of flying acro in a hang glider, but it nice to know that they can handle those conditions if I were to get dumped by a strong thermal or wind shear. A trike would fold if it got flipped, or got into a tuck and tumble caused by a whip stall and didn't recover fast enough.
It just seems like you folks look for conditions that I try to avoid with my trike, meaning I could be spending more time in the air with a hang glider, than with a trike.
Last edited by nwhiteafd on Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
NOTE: extensive edits to nwhiteafd's above post significantly changed the character of what was represented, rendering this post a bit nonsensical.
nwhiteafd wrote:
i'm VERY aware of rick assessment and management. *snip* When I fly my trike, I never fly over an area where I am not within glide of a good landing area.
I'm having a hard time reconciling that with:
nwhiteafd wrote:
I can also do low flying, which is a blast, carry a terrified passenger
__
nwhiteafd wrote:
It just seems like you guys look for conditions that I try to avoid with my trike, meaning I could be spending more time in the air with a hang glider, than with a trike.
I'm not a trike pilot; the trike pilots I've known often flew when I couldn't; that could have been because of prohibitive launch conditions on the mountain. It could be because they were nuts- or highly skilled. There are safety assets to either mode- I just don't see you coming into a hot LZ on a glider thinking "thank the goddess I'm not on my trike."
Last edited by Mavi Gogun on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
I can't speak to how hang gliding and trike flying compare, but I can tell you what I like about hang gliding.
1) There's a tight community. You're often riding up the hill with a few other pilots at a time comparing stories and learning from one another. In the air, you can see where the thermals are based on where other pilots are going up. Then there are the stories when you get to the LZ.
2) Every minute you're in the air is a minute you earned. Flying for an hour means that you found enough thermal lift to stay up that entire time. Of course, this restricts you to flying where there is lift (or flying from thermal to thermal while going XC), so there isn't complete freedom to go where you want, and you can't fly low for very long.
3) Simplicity of design. I like flying an aircraft that has no moving parts. It's very elegant.
In any case, it is extremely gratifying, and well-worth taking up.
NOTE: an early post by nwhiteafd was edited to address some of the issues brought up in this post- what is written bellow seems to ignore assertions that weren't present at the time of drafting.
nwhiteafd wrote:
Being a newby, I was hoping for a little warmer reception than that. Who peed in your cheerios this morning?
You wanted something less accurate? You think having a lighter wing loading and no thrust will engender security in rowdy air?
Every once in a while a YouTube flick of a trike pilot flying low over terrain, scaring passengers surfaces here- and the reaction is almost uniformly "this guy is nuts." Maybe you only fly low over empty beaches, or open fields free of trees, fence lines, ditches, and power lines- I could totally have the wrong image in my head. You could not be that guy. You could be the guy who terrifies passengers with low passes over your local runway, banking only after gaining sufficient altitude to deal with mishap. We'd love to have that dude- he'd be a welcome addition. The other dude is an accident waiting to happen- another guy we once knew who became a lawn dart and drove up insurance rates. Tough love, dig it?
atag wrote:
1) There's a tight community. You're often riding up the hill with a few other pilots at a time comparing stories and learning from one another. In the air, you can see where the thermals are based on where other pilots are going up. Then there are the stories when you get to the LZ.
Anthony has it. Imagine being free of that roaring motor- being so close in a thermal with friends that you can talk as easily as if you were across a volleyball court from each other? Sure, you can talk with your trike-buddies over the radio- but noth'n like being linked by the same current of air...
Pretty damn cool.
Last edited by Mavi Gogun on Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
The trike gives you easier hours, but HG will (I think) give you better hours. The best way to start is by finding local HG pilots. I'd recommend taking enough HG instruction to be competent foot-launching from hills. See my web page, for local HG clubs and instructors. They can help you with local flyin' sites.
The FAA limit on unlicensed ultralights is 254 pounds, so if your trike weighs more than that, a lighter power unit might get you out from under a lot of red tape. Ever check out the nano-trikes? So what if it climbs slower, and uses less gas, as long as you have the space needed? Whatcha got there?
Like you said hanggliding can be a blissful, magical experience, but unless you live on a hill it doesn't have the 'roll-out of the hanger and fly' convenience of a trike.
You could look up powered hanggliding (search 'Mosquito harness'), which uses a regular hangglider but with a special motorized harness that lets you take off and fly from any flat field, so you can fly from near your house on any fine evening or leave the engine at home and do 'proper' hanggliding from a hill.
Like Red said there are nano-trikes, which also use a regular (but probably slightly strengthened) hangglider wing with a minimal trike frame. I don't know what licensing is like where you are but over here these trikes are deregulated, so no airworthiness paperwork, hangerage, license renewal....
Both these contraptions fly at hangglider speeds (20-40mph) so they're not much use for XC touring or strong winds, but nice just for playing around on a summer's evening for the price of a gallon of 'gas'
Powered flight and hang gliding are really two different animals. And they satisfy on different levels. I enjoy both. My Phantom is great for doing aerobatics and cruising the countryside and yes, low level flying is a blast. It's funny that a hang glider pilot should be preaching to someone about risks associated with their activity. We're all adrenaline junkies to one extent or another. Hang gliding is much more of a challenge and you become much more in tune with your aircraft and the air around you. It's a more visceral experience and more rewarding and humbling at the same time. I think you'll love it but you'll always want that trike too. One won't replace the other. _________________ Freedom 170 FR
It's funny that a hang glider pilot should be preaching to someone about risks associated with their activity.
The original poster came seeking to determine whether hang gliding would be well suited to him- I responded on topic directly to what originally was represented (significant edits were later made to those statements) . Risk management is integral to our sport, and worthy of address; the original poster's unredacted/unedited words were addressed in service to the central question of suitability- that should not be surprising, and not at all inexplicable.
Anthony, you mentioned the tight community, simplicity and stated "every minute in the air is a minute you earned". That's what I'm looking for. You hit the nail on the head. Trikes are fun, but trike pilots are scarce around here. There isn't really a group to share the experiences with. Hang gliding seems a lot more established and offers more opportunities for comraderie. I also like the simplicity aspect, getting back to basics and really enjoying the experience without having to worry about all the extra stuff. And the earned part is good also. I enjoy learning skills that take time and patience. There is a principle in psychology that states the harder you have to work at something, the more rewarding it is. I like activities that offer infinite learning and take time to master, accomplishments that have to be earned.
Red, you mentioned better hours, finding local HG pilots, instruction and nano trikes. The better hours are what I am really looking forward to, the true birdlike freedom of flight. I have an instructor within a couple hours of me who has some pretty impressive credintials (Jeff Shapiro). He has a lot of experience and I am looking forward to learning as much as I can from him and getting to know his circle of friends. I also have a good friend in Oklahoma that is a HG instructor (and trike pilot), as well as a couple good friends up here who were former HG pilots. In fact my boss used to fly hang gliders. As far as getting enough instruction, I will take advantage of all the instruction I can get. Even after I get my ratings, I will always take every opportunity to learn from other instructors and pilots. I learned a long time ago that earning a license is not the end, it is the beginning, a license to learn. As far as the soaring trikes, I have thought about that, but they seem like a compromise. You really can't do things with them that you can do with a regular trike, and you can't really do things with them that you can do with a regular hang glider. You sacrifice when you make compromises and I'd really like to eventually have both, so that I can take advantage of the full capabilities of each. You also asked what I've got. I have an Aerotrike Safari with a Rotax 503, Aeros Stranger 14.8m 82% dual surface wing and a BRS recovery parachute system. It's made in South Africa and is a true bush trike, capable of taking off and landing out in the middle of nowhere. It is a great trike and is really rugged. Also thanks for the personal message you sent. I'm not real computer savy, so it took me a while to figure out what that was. I really appreciate you sending that.
Nick, you also mentioned the soaring trikes, motorized hang gliders, the blissful, magical experience and sent me a great video. As i mentioned to Red, I really would like to have a full size trike, and a hang glider, so that I can take advantage of the full capabilities of both aircraft. The blissful, magical experience is what I want and is what true flying is all about. Most people who say they have flown, really haven't. They have only flown in airplanes and were merely the meat filling in a giant flying aluminum burrito. And thanks for the video.
Bobfly, you mentioned that trikes and hang gliders are two different animals, that hang gliders are more of a challenge and that with a hang glider, you are more in tune with the aircraft and with the air around you. That is why I really want both, and would have a hard time choosing one over the other. On a nice cool day with no wind, I could jump into my trike and go play while the hang glider pilots are either sitting around waiting on some wind or thermal activity or just doing quick sled rides. On the days where the wind is a little too strong for my comfort in the trike, or the thermals are kicking up, I could enjoy the hang glider. I enjoy challenges and achievements I have to work for. And I'm really looking forward to flying an aircraft that feels like a natural extension of my body and feel as one with the environment. You also said you thought is was funny that a HG pilot was preaching to me about risks. I thought so too, especially after he mentioned that he was doing hammerheads and wingovers in a trike. I wouldn't even consider doing that.
Again, thank you guys so much for your input. You seem like a really good group, and I am looking forward to the experience of hang gliding and getting to know the wonderful people who do it.
Nathan
Fly your trike and a flexi. Then you'll have the best of both worlds.
Yes, the nano trikes I've seen are pretty compact, as Red mentioned. Everything folds up into a neat and small package.
If it comes down to just one or the other, then that is a choice only you can make.
Good luck and keep us posted! _________________ H-4 (1976) UP Saturn 147 & UP Axis 13
The Cloudbase Foundation
Learn to fly hang gliders (click here}
Torrey Hawks #208
You also said you thought is was funny that a HG pilot was preaching to me about risks. I thought so too, especially after he mentioned that he was doing hammerheads and wingovers in a trike. I wouldn't even consider doing that.
Re-read what I wrote: I said I was a passenger and not a trike pilot; the pilot had many thousands of hours flying trikes, as both instructor and manufacturer. The trike was appropriate to the task. The degree of risk is impossible for you to asses without knowing the pilot. That was mentioned in response to this:
nwhiteafd wrote:
you can only do acro, ONCE, in a trike, then you have to pay to replace the wing and get your parachute repacked
-which bespoke a fundamental ignorance of the vehicles capacity. Of course, failed aerobatics poses the risk of catastrophic failure to either hang gliders or trikes. Combined with your original statement about loving to fly trikes low (low enough to induce screaming in passengers, later redacted), and the belief that you would be able to fly hang gliders in a wider range of conditions, it painted a picture of a poor apprehension of either craft. That wasn't pejorative- it was a reflection of what you presented. I wouldn't have been doing you any favor to have ignored those concerns.
Of course, judiciously performing well executed aerobatics reliably necessitates a high degree of safety consciousness. I think you will find any pilot that has been actively flying acrobatically for an extended period puts a premium on judgment, preparation, and progressive experience. Frankly, that you find the pairing of acrobatics and safety consciousness remarkable is a non sequitur.
You reconsidered what you wrote, and decided that it didn't represent you well- so you re-wrote it, and with this last post, illustrated a far different character from what you first presented. Had you presented that foot forward from the start, you would have received a reception appropriate to that impression.
I fly both. I have an antares trike and.a.WW Sport2. If cost is the only issue then both are equally expensive. What I.spend getting to a flying site usually cost.as much as the gas and hanger rent combined. Then when you throw in the times you drive and conditions change and you can't fly.suddenly the trike gets cheaper to fly. If I had to give one up (which I don't forsee) I'd probably let the hg go. The trike is just to much fun, I can go places, and I've never driven to the airport and not been able to fly. Just my opinion. _________________ H-3 FL FSL ST
Sport2 155
Sport Pilot Antares 582 Trike
USAF 74/78 and USAFR 88/90 and proud to have served
Don't die until you're dead and in the mean time keep your eyes on Jesus
Sorry I got off on the wrong foot with you and gave you the wrong impression. I realize that being from different countries, there is often a cultural and language barrier, and Americans often have a strange since of humor. The screaming passenger thing was just a joke. I would never do that. And I don't fly low like the videos you saw. Trike pilots just fly low compared to hang gliders.
As far as the conditions, I don't like to fly my trike in the heat of the day when the thermals are present, as trikes are more prone to damage if they do get tossed into an excessivel bank angle, due to their weight. And I don't like flying in winds over about 5 knots, simply because I usually land at airports, and the runway often isn't going the same direction as the wind. As I understand it, hang gliders do well in thermals, and need a little bit of wind for launch. I definitely wouldn't try to go flying in high winds or adverse conditions.
Concerning aerobatics, I would never attempt that as a beginner. Maybe later once I have a few thousand hours under my belt. It is just nice to know that a hang glider can handle those conditions, if you hit a strong thermal and get tossed around a little. The definition for aerobatics for most trike wings is anything over 45 degrees angle of bank, or anything over 30 degrees of pitch angle. They are not very forgiving after that.
And please be careful if you go flying with your trike pilot friend. He is the one you need to talk to about safety. I don't care how many hours he has, trikes are not designed for what you described. Hammerheads and wing overs far exceed the design capabilities of a trike. My instructor also had several thousand hours, and a top of the line trike. He was killed about a year ago in a trike, and he wasn't doing anything near as extreme as your friend.
As far as editing my posts, I was just trying to make myself more clear, and let you know that I am very safety conscious. Again I apologize for misleading you. I should have been more specific in the first place and left out the joking.
I didn't read everything on this thread, especially the weird debate with Mavi, so I apologize if I say anything repetitive...
Hang gliding is a totally different experience from triking, and expense is not a major reason to pick one over the other. I think most of us wish we had the time and money to do both but overwhelmingly pick hang gliding for the purity, spirituality if you will, and simplicity of the experience.
It seems like, for whatever reasons, hang glider pilots fly more often and for longer durations than pilots with power packs of whatever type. This is true for powered vs. non-powered paraglider guys, too. Those with engines stand around talking about and dinking with those engines more than using them. I only know one guy who got into power (with a Mosquito) and stayed hard-core with it, but I know several guys who abandoned power or who mostly let their power packs collect dust.
Hang gliding probably isn't going to save you much money; the initial investment of time, money, and energy can be huge. If you live in the right spot near the right instructor and get to know the right people, those investments can be much less. I paid less than $500 for all of my instruction, which came to an end over twenty years ago. I only buy new equipment every 5-10 years and so get a pretty good return on that investment, but I burn around $30-50 in gas roundtrip and at least half a day of my time to fly at the closest sites to me. And on occasion, fortunately not too often, I get skunked by the winds entirely or get a 10-minute flight.
Often, heading out to fly isn't even about a desperate need for airtime. It's about getting away from the house, into nature, and hanging out with fun people with whom I share a common bond. Triking alone near home with a roaring engine wouldn't satisfy those needs.
Food for thought... _________________ Saturn 147, Predator 142
Last edited by J Fritsche on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Nathan,
I fly both. And a dragonfly too. But I have way more hours in HG's than in anything else. When I fly a trike I am almost always towing hang gliders. They want to fly in soarable (turbulent) conditions. Usually in the middle of the day. This is not easy for either pilot - as you know well.
What I mean to say is that it will take some time before you will be able to expand your flying in rougher conditions with a hang glider. Be it towing or foot-launching from a hill.
You seem to have the right attitude about it though. And Jeff can help you get to that level in a step-by-step way that will keep you safe.
Welcome!
Bart _________________ www.cuhanggliding.com
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We're all adrenaline junkies to one extent or another. Hang gliding is much more of a challenge and you become much more in tune with your aircraft and the air around you. It's a more visceral experience and more rewarding and humbling at the same time. I think you'll love it but you'll always want that trike too. One won't replace the other.
