[Bertie]

I have been trying out a Freedom170 and I like the way it takes off turns and lands apart from some flutter in the sail between the 2 outer battens both at speed and in tight turns. This is a 3-4 year old demo all Dacron glider and the bungys are pretty slack and the metal staple doesn't make adjusting the tension easy so my questions are for experienced Freedom pilots. Do you experience this flutter or have later models improved? Does the PX sail make any difference? Will increasing the bungy tension help?
Finally are the cross tube fairings worth having?

[TomGalvin]

[Bertie]

Actually it makes it very easy if you know the technique.

Thanks for that. I tightened the bungys and the big flutter has gone. I did notice some very small vibration ,but only by looking at the sail. Does the PX sail make any difference or is it just bling?

[aqua]

a guy I sometimes fly with has an all dacron freedom, with a flutter, I don't think he's ever tried to tune it out.
I have the mylar sail, it might be bling, but it sure is tight, and I love the look on the freedom's sail profile.
those fairings just don't do it for me, and I'm not convinced of a performance gain. I like the bare tube retro look, although Kamron swears they work.

[Bertie]

Very helpful. I like the idea of the PX sail and the fairings don't do it for
me either unless there is a tangible performance gain?

[J Fritsche]

This is at least the third time fairly recently that I've heard complaints about sail flutter on curved-wingtip gliders (a feature that seems mostly to be about bling, too, especially on a single-surface glider). It makes me want to avoid such gliders; unfortunately, there are very few alternatives...whenever the Falcon 4 comes out, it will probably have curved tips too.

I read Wills Wing's advice for tuning the flutter out, but with the unavoidable exception of adjusting a couple batten strings on great occasion, I don't want to screw around with such issues. To me, it's a design flaw.

I've owned 5 straight-wingtip gliders, and only experienced sail flutter with one of them--a Saturn, which (I found out after buying it used) is notorious for the problem.

[Bobfly]

Dacron sails last longer but I do admit that I like the look of the PX sail and it is very tight and wrinkle free. As to the fairings, I can't say whether they boost glide performance or not but anything that reduces drag on a glider is a good thing. They do add some bling to it too. The difference in drag between a round tube and an airfoil shaped tube is considerable. At single surface speeds it probably isn't too noticeable but what the heck, I still like them.

[gsxrpilot]

I sure can't wait until my all mylar sail, Freedom 190 arrives from Northwing.

[Stoubie]

Northwing makes some good stuff. So easy to use and set up. Love my Northwing T2. I wonder what would happen if I tricked out my tandem glider like a Freedom? It might be like putting a set of hydrofoils on Shamu, but it would be fun to trick her out.

[Cal Glider]

[Bobfly]

[aqua]

I'd like to see the performance data for the freedom, too. The manual, I have to admit, looks as if its from 1982.
one thing I can say is; I've flown my freedom and a falcon on the same day, and there is a huge difference in performance, especially when pulling on some speed, you don't glide like a brick.
I plan to figure out the specs (polar) this year with my new gps flight deck.
at a few of the sites I fly, the min sink performance of the freedom can keep me soaring when others sink out.

[Bobfly]

Aqua, that's something I would like to do (fly them both back to back). You are right though. The Freedom won't parachute down like a Falcon with the bar stuffed and doesn't bleed off speed in ground effect nearly as fast as a Falcon. The Falcon is a sweet flying wing but the Freedom is in a whole different class. It's just not fair to compare the two of them to each other. I would also say that the 170 Freedom carries my weight better then a 195 Falcon but with much lighter bar pressures (215-220 hook in). Glide was maybe 1/3 farther on the training hills at Lookout with the Freedom.

[Bertie]

Now had my 4th flight on the demo Freedom. On each occaision I would not have flown unless it was a single surface glider as they were small sites with weak and turbulant lift so there are clear benefits to having a glider like this as I get to fly more often. I have tightened the 3 outer bungees and the flutter now only occurs at steepish angles of bank on the outside wing. I assume that this is a result of the billow shift and can not be eliminated. Do the Full Race PX sails do this and is it common to all SS gliders?
Thanks for your help.

[Bobfly]

How old is this demo Freedom you're flying? Notice on the blue/yellow Freedom on the above post the reinforcement to the trailing edge on the 3 outer ribs. I've never seen any flutter or wrinkles on this sail. Maybe someone else can chime in.

[lostgriz]

I have the prototype Freedom, with a Mylar sail. It had a little bit of flutter in both tips. I put small zip ties through the grommets at the last two battens on each end and that took it right out.

They sure are sweet gliders! I don't know why I couldn't get this to show as an image, but here is a link to a cool picture of mine.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-beH6tD8DHXE/TqV9tMwlWKI/AAAAAAAALvo/Km3mJq61KQU/s1280/2011-10-22_17-54-32_683.jpg?gl=US

[Bobfly]

Very nice, Griz. That looks cool with the sun shining thru the wing.

[TXJoel]

I just took delivery of a new Freedom 220 Tandem for Aerotow ops here in Texas. Great looking glider. For a tandem glider, roll response was considerably light. This glider has an all Dacron Sail.

- Joel

[sbrian2]

I'm really eager to test fly a Freedom. I often wonder if the better comparison is between the Freedom and a Mark IV or Pulse. Are we just reinventing the Pulse? Does the Pulse out-glide the Freedom (Pulse has more double surface, but probably more sweep, too)? The roll response on my old Pulse was just spectacular, and it really did weigh about 55 lbs. The Freedom claims a similar weight, but I've heard it's actually higher. Is that true? If so, why?

(sorry if this takes the conversation further from sail flutter, but we seem to be moving in that direction....)

[Bobfly]

Not sure of the weight on my Freedom but it doesn't feel much lighter then my Horizon 180 and that thing was heavy. Get your test flight. I guarantee you will be delighted and converted. As Jyoder put it, " It flares like.......butter!" It responds to inputs quickly and has very light bar pressure, even with the bar stuffed. Slow it down and it just keeps flying (had mine at 16 at a hook in of 225 and it wasn't quite to trim yet). Probably need to move the hang loop forward one hole. I'm pretty sure mine will outclimb a Falcon 195 with equal lift and it's only a 170. I was hesitant to get the 170 but it carries me very well. A good pilot to talk to is John Stokes. He's been flying one for quite some time.