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Andrew Vanis
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Location: www.flysandia.org - Albuquerque, NM, USA
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: Revival - Why You Should Hang Glide: Just published on VISIT |
 #1 |
Revival - Why You Should Hang Glide: Just published on VISIT FLORIDA
orig here - http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25641
(no, I don't know how to put an image inline and not have it at the bottom)
1st – I like SG and he has done a GREAT! Job with the ORG. And yes, his playground, he can do what he wants.
2nd – this seems uncharacteristic for him. Is he having a bad day?
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?p=276148#276148
3rd – I don’t see the issue with Lauren’s posts. Its all HG related stuff. Not like she’s hawking fake Rolexes.
I’m guessing her posting the webpage was just easier than just the youtube link.
On here we have that Toyota commercial on here with the HGs, and that health insurance commercial with the Native American HG pilot and those were not pulled.
Would it have been better if Lauren’s video had a bunch of Florida stuff and just a snippet of HG?
PS – all those posts that Flytec products and service are excellent are actually shell users organized by Steve to plant guerrilla advertizing ;-)
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
#2 |
"VISIT FLORIDA® is the Official Florida Tourism Industry Marketing Corporation."
Created by the Florida legislature in 1996 as a public/private partnership, VISIT FLORIDA’s receives state funding from a portion of the two-dollar-per-day rental surcharge and general revenue.
VISIT FLORIDA employs a staff of 98 at the organization’s headquarters in Tallahassee, its five Official Florida Welcome Centers and a dedicated office in Miami serving Latin America. VISIT FLORIDA also has three field offices in Tampa, Jacksonville and Orlando, and has international contractors in the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and China.
This is a commercial business.
Its not even a hang gliding business.
Its not even a hang gliding website.
The font page doesnt even mention hang gliding.
Its clearly SPAM. Its clearly in violation of the rules.
I have an idea. Invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars creating a website so you can give other people free advertising and traffic.
Flytec, Lookout Mtn Hang Gliding, Wills Wing, etc, are all hang gliding businesses.
Why should I discriminate against them, and require them to pay to advertise here while giving someone else free advertising here??? How fair is that?
Who is going to pay the bills for a nice fast server and high bandwidth? Should I have to pay for it all myself?
The AD revenue for this site helps me pay the bills. I get almost nothing for the hours I put in every week. I think I deserve to get paid at least a little bit for all this work.
This site is free for you to use because of the advertising revenue it generates.
PS: Sure sounds like youre calling my a tyrant. Is that what the big red arrow means pointing to my TJ quote? Im a tryant for not allowing people to abuse the site rules that help me pay the bills??? Is that it?
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
Last edited by sg on Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andrew Vanis
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 482
Location: www.flysandia.org - Albuquerque, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
#3 |
First, nothing personal here. You’re not a bad guy. My comments are only about what appear to be inconsistencies where it looks like you stomped on Lauren specifically.
| sg wrote: |
I have an idea. Invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars creating a website so you can give other people free advertising and traffic.
Flytec, Lookout Mtn Hang Gliding, Wills Wing, etc, are all hang gliding businesses.
Why should I discriminate against them, and require them to pay to advertise here while giving someone else free advertising here??? How fair is that? |
I don’t get the logic. Do those HG businesses pay for advertizing here? How do the other ads / links on here like the ones I cited fit into this logic?
| sg wrote: |
Who is going to pay the bills for a nice fast server and high bandwidth? Should I have to pay for it all myself?
The AD revenue for this site helps me pay the bills. I get almost nothing for the hours I put in every week. I think I deserve to get paid at least a little bit for all this work.
This site is free for you to use because of the advertising revenue it generates. |
Great! Do Lauren’s posts detract from those revenues? Do they detract more than following a link to youtube to watch the video? Do they detract more than other links we put here for suppliers of strong magnets or other items?
It’s a great site and I only have a figment of an idea of what it takes and it takes a lot. But it seems the current business model seems to allow some “advertizing” without issues and Lauren’s get’s stomped. Seems inconsistent.
Maybe the business model could include a fund drive. Honestly, I have not thought of it before now because it was not an issue. I would become a donor if a direct ask was made. Its unfair to expect folks to donate if they don’t know its needed. For all we know, those ads for MajicJack and Jeeps are buying you a speedboat.
| sg wrote: |
| PS: Sure sounds like youre calling my a tyrant. Is that what the big red arrow means pointing to my TJ quote? Im a tryant for not allowing people to abuse the site rules that help me pay the bills??? Is that it? |
No, not tyrant. More out of character from past reasonable action and the impression you give with that citation.
It was more about closing a topic with reasonable, non-offensive discussion and de facto forcing “people of good conscience to remain silent” just because you own the newspaper. But hey, you own the newspaper. But one of the reasons you get the participation you do I’d bet is that folks can speak freely. Take that away and those google ads will pay even less.
I liked it better when in the past you stepped away from topics you didn’t want to discuss and let them die their own death.
BTW – where are those site rules? I can’t seem to find them. Were they there only on the original registration which I did several years ago.
BTW2 - If I do donate (buy a subscription), can I get those non-HG ads off the site? I don't want a Chrysler.
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selbaer
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Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 1406
Location: Tampa, FL
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
#4 |
You have shown your level of respect toward other peoples property in the past.
So it's not a great surprise you question the site owners rules and forum policy, feel free to donate here:
http://www.hanggliding.org/donate.php
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
#5 |
| Quote: |
| But it seems the current business model seems to allow some “advertizing” without issues and Lauren’s get’s stomped. Seems inconsistent. |
All ad's are purchased here via the google adwords program. Anyone can sign up and purchase targeted AD's on this site for their business.
Non-paying ad's, like the commercial Visit Florida pages are removed. I get almost daily spam that I remove from the site every day. There is nothing inconsistent here. Paid AD's are shown on the site, non-paid AD's are removed/stomped almost daily. This has nothing to do with Lauren. Her AD's were removed along with thousands of others ive removed over the years.
Why should Visit Florida get free advertising here, when everyone else has to pay for the AD's you see on this site?
Visit Florida isnt even a hang gliding business. Why should Visit Florida get free advertising, but not Wills Wing???
Can you provide me a list of HG business you think should get free advertising here, and which ones should not? What should I tell the ones that are not allowed to advertise for free?
When the AD's no longer cover the bills for the server because everyone now realizes they can advertise for free here, should I shut the org down, or do you expect me to pay for everything and volunteer all the free hours for keeping things running smoothly????
I await your list of who you think should get free advertising here and who shouldnt.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
Last edited by sg on Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
#6 |
PS: Site rules are listed as the first link in the WIKI
http://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/HG_ORG_Mission_Statement
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Andrew Vanis
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Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 482
Location: www.flysandia.org - Albuquerque, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
| sg wrote: |
| I await your list of who you think should get free advertising here and who shouldnt. |
Your call, but since you have not deleted other things that would be considered “advertizing”, seems like you stomped on Lauren.
I guess what I really don’t get are three points –
1 - that Lauren’s just showing here what is being done out there promoting HG to the general public. I don’t see her links as an attempt to get the readers here to visit FL which is, what I understand to be, the advertizing intent of the webpage where the HG vids are. We all already know how awesome FL is for HG.  ***notice how her post was in the ”Growing the Sport of HG” forum?
2 – other advertizing here was not deleted, thus isolating Lauren for some reason.
3 – why SG shut down that topic. The way it was going it did not seem to violate any of these rules.
“KEEP IT CIVIL. Attacking other members, or covert implied attacks are NOT allowed. No harassing or stalking other members. Inflammatory posts are not allowed. This includes "photoshopping" member pictures in a negative way. You will get a warning if you break this rule. If you persist to do this, you will be banned.Threads that start to spin out of control, will be LOCKED. If you wish to cry censorship because a thread is locked when people start acting like children, take it to another forum.”
“Please treat the admin as a regular user. As long as you follow the rules, there is NO CHANCE you will banned because you disagree with the admin. The admin would like to be part of this community too without having to walk on egg shells because people think his word holds more weight for whatever reason. It does not. But the admin will do his job as moderator when he has to. But please follow the rules and don't make him do it, he doesn't enjoy that part. ”
| selbaer wrote: |
| You have shown your level of respect toward other peoples property in the past. |
High respect as always. Nice ot hear for you again. That harness is working out very well, thank you
Done
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
#8 |
| Andrew Vanis wrote: |
| sg wrote: |
| I await your list of who you think should get free advertising here and who shouldnt. |
Your call, but since you have not deleted other things that would be considered “advertizing”, seems like you stomped on Lauren.
|
For example??? Im sure I occasionally miss advertising, by accident, but that has no bearing on the fact that I delete advertising I come across. Laurens was not any kind of exception. It was deleted just like typical non-paid AD's I find.
Event notices are obviously allowed, since I have an events forum just for that, and those are commercial.
| Quote: |
I guess what I really don’t get are three points –
1 - that Lauren’s just showing here what is being done out there promoting HG to the general public. I don’t see her links as an attempt to get the readers here to visit FL which is, what I understand to be, the advertizing intent of the webpage where the HG vids are. We all already know how awesome FL is for HG. ***notice how her post was in the ”Growing the Sport of HG” forum? |
Laurens links were to a Visit Florida page loaded with Visit Florida stuff and revenue generating AD's with an HG video embeded on the page. Its still commercial advertising, that is not paid for, violating this sites rules.
Again, it begs the question, why should Visit Florida, and non-hangliding business get to advertise here for free when a 100% hang gliding business like Wills Wing does NOT get to advertise here for free? What is your reasoning for this special Visit Florida exception? Why them and not Wills Wing? Surely wills wing is promoting and growing the sport.
| Quote: |
2 – other advertizing here was not deleted, thus isolating Lauren for some reason. |
Simply false. I delete non-paid AD's on this site almost daily. Its possible I miss a few, and ill delete them as soon as they are brought to my attention.
Do you have actual examples???
| Quote: |
3 – why SG shut down that topic. The way it was going it did not seem to violate any of these rules. |
Because Davis was trolling me, and I didnt have time to be trolled. I had already explained everything that needed to be explained and was just repeating myself at that point.
And here I go again, having to defend myself on this thread too. I really dont have time for this.
I asked you for a list of businesses YOU think should be allowed to advertise here for free. You responded with "your call". Lets explore this. It doesnt hurt to answer the question. What would YOU do in my shoes????
Who would YOU allow to advertise here for free if it were your site?????? Lets hear it. I think its safe to assume that a non-HG business like Visit Florida would be allowed to advertise for free on your site as long as it contained an HG video.
How about other non-HG businesses that embed an HG video?
How about HG businesses?
Where do you draw the line?
Why some and not others?
Once all the HG businesses realize they can get free advertising here, and fill up all the AD spots, you are no making $0 in revenue. Now who pays the bills? You??? Thousands of dollars a year for many years?
OK... waiting for the list now.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Fred Wilson
1 thumbs up
Joined: 03 Apr 2009
Posts: 1542
Location: Vernon BC Canada
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
#10 |
I have allowed people to advertise in the past in the name of charity as well.
The womens HG team had a free AD on here forever to sell their t-shirts and support their team for example.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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ksykes
3 thumbs up
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 166
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: |
#11 |
Since I jumped in early on this - one last comment;
- SG - you said "I have done more than 99% of anyone to promote hang gliding" (paraphrasing). No argument at all on that point.
- Posting the link the way it was done is against site rules and cost you money. Again your site, your rules no argument there either.
My only points were;
1. I don't think Lauren Intended to violate the rules or cause you harm
2. She is in that same 1% of promoters of the sport you put yourself in
3. You could have gotten to the same outcome (having her not post links to the site) by pointing that out in much less accusatory way.
4. After several people have called you out on it, I still have not heard a "hey Lauren, sorry for the misunderstanding"
My guess is the noise would have come to a rapid halt if you had done that.
As I said before, last comment..
Kinsley Sykes
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Andrew Vanis
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Mar 2009
Posts: 482
Location: www.flysandia.org - Albuquerque, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:33 am Post subject: |
#12 |
Quick answer, wish I had time to write more..
| sg wrote: |
| Do you have actual examples??? |
| sg wrote: |
| OK... waiting for the list now. |
Rule - Dont spam the forum. No advertising on this site. Ask SG for permission first.
Probably the most recent -
http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=25513
| Residenthooligan wrote: |
| “Flyte Park …… an upgraded version of the Microvario……We're offering over 30% off the retail ….. find out more and sign up here:www.flytepark.com/Beta” |
= your call
The Toyota commercial (can find if you like
= your call
The healthcare commercial
= your call
The landing clinics
= your call
Events
= your call
Charities
= your call
Did any all of there ask your permission first? Some of these like the landing clinics are direct advertisers to your audience.
Quote with edits
| sg wrote: |
| What is your reasoning for this special __________ exception? Why them and not _____________? Surely _____________ is promoting and growing the sport. |
= your call.
I guess like most, you consider the benefit to your members of some “advertising” to outweigh the lost revenue or the effort to enforce the advertising policy. That makes sense.
There is a line there (somewhere) and it seems to be drawn inconsistently and in my and apparently other’s opinion you put Lauren on the violator side of that line. Guess we would just have drawn that line at a different location considering the intent of the post. Again, not like she’s hawking fake Rolexes.
Maybe there is a line (provision) for news release type postings …
”WW now has T2 135”
“WW has a hang strap advisory”
“here’s an example how the non-HG media is promoting HG”
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
#13 |
Am I getting called out for accusing someone of spamming for actually spamming???
Or is the issue that I gave her a chance to explain herself instead of just deleting the spam like I usually do, and thus sounding accusatory?
Not sure what the misunderstanding is that you are referring to either.
If I walked up to a storefront, and plastered one of my big commercial posters on their glass window without talking to a manager or paying for it, there is no misunderstanding between two people. Only one person was involved.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
#14 |
This isnt even a real product yet, its in beta testing. I dont have an issue with people helping an HG related business beta test their product.
Once they are ready to sell the actual product, then thats a different story.
| Quote: |
The Toyota commercial (can find if you like
= your call
The healthcare commercial
= your call |
Really have no idea what you are talking about. Either I missed some spam or you are talking about paid advertisers showing up on the site.
| Quote: |
The landing clinics
= your call
Events
= your call
Charities
= your call |
Landing clinics I consider HG events.
Im not going to block things like landing clinics, XC contests, etc... these are things typically broadcast to the HG community.
| Quote: |
Did any all of there ask your permission first? Some of these like the landing clinics are direct advertisers to your audience. |
Again... landing clinics fall under HG events. After all, I do send FREE "leads" to commercial HG schools all over the country.
| Quote: |
I guess like most, you consider the benefit to your members of some “advertising” to outweigh the lost revenue or the effort to enforce the advertising policy. That makes sense.
There is a line there (somewhere) and it seems to be drawn inconsistently and in my and apparently other’s opinion you put Lauren on the violator side of that line. Guess we would just have drawn that line at a different location considering the intent of the post. Again, not like she’s hawking fake Rolexes. |
Yup, and Visit Florida.com isnt even an HG business. Its pretty easy to draw the line correctly in that case.
| Quote: |
Maybe there is a line (provision) for news release type postings …
”WW now has T2 135”
“WW has a hang strap advisory”
“here’s an example how the non-HG media is promoting HG” |
There is no way im going to block hang strap advisories. Come on.
HG news is posted here all the time. Thats not an issue.
But WW coming here ad advertising their gliders constantly with backlinks to their products would get shot down immediately.
They is a grey area that requires a judgement call, and as the owner of this site, I get to make that call.
VisitFlorida.com was a trivial judgement call, not even an HG business.
But this grey area means that a certain percentage of people are going to disagree with my judgement call WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, another percentage is going to agree with it.
No matter the call, a certain percentage of people are going to be upset with me. Its a s*** position to constantly be in, but thats the job of moderator.
What I dont appreciate is when I have to make such a call, people getting political and trying to paint me as unfair or in a bad light.
Realize, that if I put you in charge of coming up with a list of who is and is not allowed to advertise here, you would piss off a certain percentage of people. No matter how fair you tried to be, a group is going to think you are unfair because their list is different.
Is it then fair for that group to paint you as an unfair??? Walk a day in my shoes.
This is precisely why I actively avoid posting on my own site these days. I try to stay invisible. Because as them mod, no matter what I say, someone gets pissed. No answer pleases everyone. Its not possible. Then you have to catch crap from everyone you didnt please.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Jason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 7532
Location: Stapleton, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: |
#15 |
i think you did just fine SG
I did see the healthcare commerical.....however it was just a link to a youtube video that had Eves Tall Chief in it.
same with the Toyota commerical- it was just a youtube video, that happened to have (fake) hanggliders in it
which is exactly what you asked Lauren to do....just post the youtube link
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TSA, DHS, NDAA and SOPA Seig Heil! |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:18 am Post subject: |
#16 |
Oooooh.... these were videos posted by users that highlight hang gliding in commercial videos then?
Yeah... no issue there.
Its not like toyota came here and spammed toyota commercials.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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davisstraub
1 thumbs up
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:22 am Post subject: |
#17 |
| Quote: |
| I have an idea. Invest hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars creating a website so you can give other people free advertising and traffic. |
Done that. Available at the usual location.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
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Windlord
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 4704
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:46 am Post subject: |
#18 |
Andrew- give it a rest ! Please  You're hashing old news. If you are trying to understand what took place
and can't put the pieces together  then maybe you don't need to understand.
SG's action were nothing personal against Lauren, it was strictly business. His site, his rules!
Lauren wanted us to see an HG Florida video. I wanted to see it also. The video link only should have been posted and not embedded within another link.
I was a little surprised when the Visit FL ad displayed and not an HG video.Don't get me wrong, the Visit FL ad is pretty nice and colorful.
But that is not what I wanted to see or expected. I'm sure Lauren's intentions were good. It could have been addressed differently.
If in doubt, ask first!
_________________
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The Cloudbase Foundation
Learn to fly hang gliders (click here}
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davisstraub
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Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 1713
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:08 am Post subject: |
#19 |
| Quote: |
| Lauren wanted us to see an HG Florida video. I wanted to see it also. The video link only should have been posted and not embedded within another link. |
She also wanted to get credit for posting this video with her bosses so that they would keep her on the job so she could continue to promote hang gliding.
Pretty similar to sg's motivation, I would wager.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
#20 |
Lauren is paid to market for a non-HG related business.
This is somehow related to me??? Because she also promotes hang gliding by embedding videos? Is that it? THAT is the leap being made?
THEREFORE, im somehow responsible for giving this commercial non-HG business free advertising???
Is that the argument being made?
This boils down to:
IF someone works for a company, and promotes HG also, the company they work for should get free advertising here.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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