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gasdive
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Re: Skull protection Reply with quote #61   
Mavi Gogun wrote:
gasdive wrote:
Roadrunner wrote:
I had extensive xonal sheering throughout the right side of my skull..


That comes from your head being rotated suddenly. No helmet will protect you from that. Your quest for a "something adequate" is pointless.


The the assertion that axonal sheering is exclusively the result of rotation is false:


Yep, sorry, I read that as zonal shearing. I think you're right that he's talking about DAI which is a different thing. DAI confined to the right has me confused. Being "diffuse" sort of means by definition it's not restricted to one area...

DAI is *normally* from sudden rotation, but can also be from linear shock loads.

=:)

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remmoore
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #62   
Boy, I feel sorry for the poor MX rider pictured above - and the thousands of other schmucks like him. Don't they know they should be using flimsy, thinly padded HG helmets?

Being thrown to the ground at 20-30mph is no joke, but those MX guys still operate under the bizarre theory that a sturdy shell and more chrushable foam might make them safer. A few people here (well, maybe only one) have proven repeatedly through scientific calculation that any additional protection is overkill - and maybe dangerous to us HG pilots.

I'm sure TBG is very pleased to know that the thin, fully-crushed foam in his HG helmet provided the best protection he could hope for - any other helmet would've killed him, like it surely will for those silly MX riders.

Hooray for math!

RM


Last edited by remmoore on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Roadrunner
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:23 am    Post subject: Thanks guy's Reply with quote #63   
i guys thanks for all the input, and it makes me happy that I did not see mid evil era helmet pictures. I am in the situation that in order to free fly again, I MUST find better skull protection in to take to the air, I now know that it matters not how hot a lander you are, you can still pound.

At this moment in time. I do not know which MFG. makes the best helmet on this planet. But, I know that helmet is the one that belongs on my melon.

Thanks again
he Big Guy
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gasdive
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #64   
Actually the best helmet I've seen was built by an engineer for his own use. Not by a manufacturer at all.

Fibreglass shell (building in fiberglass is trivially easy). It was packed with specially softenened foam (for low g energy absorbtion) and was much thicker in front/top while offering no protection at all to side impact. (the ears were completely uncovered).

The foam was at least twice as thick as that offered by MX helmets without the downside of the super stiffness that those helmets have in our application.

There were no chin guards, peaks or other protrusions that offer extra traction on the ground (reducing the chance of rotational brain injury)

It was also very light for a fibreglass helmet, reducing neck strain and improving concentration on long flights. (he's a comp pilot)

However it wasn't as pretty as the current crop of helmets and certainly didn't offer the cashe of looking like a motorcross star. It looked rough and home made, deeply uncool.

=:)

PS, and like the medieval helmets it was slightly peaked on top, for exactly the same reason. It's better when struck by a long narrow object (be it poleaxe or keel) if that impact is deflected somewhat rather than completely absorbed. No helmet standard for vehicles (of any sort) takes that into account as a possible impact. Being free from the strictures of designing to a standard he could just build the best possible helmet he could.

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gasdive
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Skull protection Reply with quote #65   
Roadrunner wrote:
The human Brain was never intended to absorb a 100 gs or so.




300 g. Think about that for a second... three HUNDRED g. Your head weighs around 5 kg or about 12 pounds. So for that instant the load on your head is around 1500 kg or 3600 pounds.

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Tasi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #66   
berg wrote:
Tasi wrote:
Haven't read all the thread but the Icaro ones seem to be pretty popular (style and protection/ no advertisement intended). There is an article in their website in regards with the Euronorm "crash" tests of their helmets and a link to video footage during one. In any case the main purpose of the helmet is to keep your skull together no matter if it fails or not (it is supposed to fail to work).

edit: deleted. no need for the sad story Smile


http://icaro2000.com/Products/Helmets/Safety/About-safety.htm


And here's a link testing a new helmet, in case you haven' had a look yet.
I'm pretty sure though that in Europe every manufacturer has to undergo these tests as part of the EN standards for airsport worthiness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI2Yb17slkM&feature=g-all&context=G25c9315FAAAAAAAACAA
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epic1969
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #67   
Roadrunner, IMHO one of the best helmets for HG are produced by POC. Some POC helmets as well as Burton's RED line incorporate a system known as MIPS. The MIPS system protects the brain from oblique impacts as well as radial unlike any other system. The Cortex DH ski racing helmet has this system. Check it out. I think this is what you are looking for. I think downhill ski accidents produce the most hang glider like crashes since the speeds and obstacles i.e.( trees, rocks, etc.) are similair. The light cool looking HG helmetsare in my opinion, not adequate as protection. I cannot add a link since this is my first post but check these out!

pocsports.com-Cortex DH helmet
mipshelmet.com-how-it-works

Erik[/url][/url]
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Roadrunner
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #68   
Hello Hanglidding.org It is great to have started some discussion about Skull Brain protection. will be checking out all the leads that I can find. Because as of now, there is no Helmet safety system that I would feel good about using. It is either wait and search for a better Skull/Brain protection system, or get better at landing, or quit. OK, goodbye The Big Guy
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Mavi Gogun
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #69   
RR- check out the new MIPS standard- it appears to address some of your concerns:

http://mipshelmet.com/home

and

http://www.pocsports.com/en/product/1219/cortex-dh-mips

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blindrodie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #70   
Quote:
That would depend on the nature of the crash


BettyP of High Energy Sports said show me how you are going to crash and I'll build you a better parachute.

Helmet selection is nothing more than a personal choice. One can not make any single statement about proper head protection unless one knows how it will be needed.

If you don't like what you see on the market then quit flying. No one single piece of protection will ever work. The pursuit of a high level of protection is commendable however it will never be an end=all solution...

Sounds like a lot of pilots out there need to re-evaluate their flying conditions and stand down a little more often.

I'm dead horsing this one. Truly the BEST of luck to everyone in your noble search!

Cool

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macsux
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #71   
Amen.

To me safety is a balance. Hang gliding is a risk based sport - there is a chance of serious injury. I think instead of chasing the best protection possible you guys should really focus on your flying style and decision making.

To me helmet is there to save my skull from a bad whack. The Icaro HG helmet you keep bashing did the job just fine. If you can't handle the risk factor, go home and watch youtube.

I also think style and comfort are a balancing considerations when picking gear. I get pleasure knowing that I look good while flying. Fashion industry wouldn't exist otherwise. If you don't care about how you look at all may I suggest you bubble wrap yourself before flying? I mean how much discomfort / looking silly are you willing to stand before sacrificing some safety aspects. We all do it - it's a matter of preference where you line is.

If you're crashing hard enough to need a better helmet, then maybe you should go back to training and improve your technique and reexamine the days you're flying. If the risk is too much for YOU, maybe hang gliding is just not your thing...

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remmoore
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #72   
Rodie/Mac,

I can't tell you how many times I've heard these types of rationalization - "We can never know what type of protection we will need." "If you wanna be safe, don't HG." "Learn how to not need decent head protection."

Despite the fact that better head protection exists, and is easier/cheaper to obtain than most HG helmets, you've chosen to not to use such equipment. Helmet design is advancing, but you've chosen flash over substance.
Even more, you're ready to mock those who would seek out better helmets.
Whatever.

There are some pilots, however, who may not realize they can simply and effectively wear better head protection than the silly stuff that passes as HG helmets. Those are the pilots I'm trying to reach - not you.

RM
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blindrodie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #73   
Quote:
There are some pilots, however, who may not realize they can simply and effectively wear better head protection than the silly stuff that passes as HG helmets. Those are the pilots I'm trying to reach - not you


With all due respect RM you are also repeating yourself. Those pilots that you are trying to reach should take more time to learn about conditions and refining flying skills because they are not the ones reading this thread. Moot point I realize...

I would not however remark, 'Whatever". Since the journey starts with setup, launch and landing I would remark, Practice, patience and more practice.
Then the helmet in current form WILL do it's job...at least until it's your time to go!

Oh and who is mocking whom here? You seem to be making a decision based on a little too much emotion. I hardly think my Charlie No Limit is "silly".

Cool

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remmoore
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #74   
Like I said, Rodie - I'm not trying to change your mind.

It is a strange attitude, however: "I'll wear a lesser helmet, until it doesn't do it's job - then it's time to go." I wonder who would feel the same after a major impact.

Chris has told me that he had the same sentiment until after his crash. He thought his many years of honing his flying and landing skills would protect him from such a catastrophy - or he would simply die.

He said he never considered the middle ground - a horrific brain injury that all the experts believed would be fatal, but wasn't. An injury that the experts later said would leave him a vegetable. He's happy to have survived, but not willing to take the same bet twice. I don't blame him - do you?

You've called my comments "emotional", but I consider them the opposite. I'm not willing to wear a lesser helmet for the sake of looking "badass". I value protection over light and streamlined, and there are plenty of options out there that give me more than a HG helmet offers. Nothing but logic and common sense.

Am I repeating myself? Yep - and this won't be the last time! Wink

RM
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blindrodie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #75   
Quote:
It is a strange attitude, however: "I'll wear a lesser helmet, until it doesn't do it's job - then it's time to go." I wonder who would feel the same after a major impact.


No on the contrary. I will continue to wear a helmet that I believe, based on industry standards will protect me to the best of it's ability and I will trust myself to be diligent
in how I assess the conditions I fly in and work hard to fly within my skill set.

If I make a mistake I will pay the consequences. Who's to say it will be my brain.

I have great respect for your crusade RM. Just don't tell me (or anyone else) I will survive any better if I get a helmet that you approve of. You nor anyone else should be spreading false security about a better helmet. You simply can not expect to be better off with a certain type helmet. Get one if you will. It just might do the trick and it might not...

Cool

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #76   
Better safety equipment of any type is NOT false security. Saying that is just plain foolish.
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blindrodie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #77   
I agree Paul.
Better safety equipment is important.

It 's the "odds" of it all that bother me. Preaching that a helmet will make one safer or is more likely to keep one alive is what's silly. There's just too many variables and other risk stacked against us as hang glider pilots.

I just believe that improving ones flying fundamentals are a better risk when it comes to which type of injury will occur.

Too each his own. If I splat in the future you can use me as an example and maybe that will sell a few more POC's. They are pretty cool looking.

Cool

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Paul H
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #78   
Considering that most of us fly headfirst and heads tend to strike the ground during a lot of HG accidents, it's not the least bit silly to say that a better helmet is more likely to protect its wearer. Why would you even think that?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #79   
What are the statistics on injury type to hang glider pilots?

Anyone?

Cool

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #80   
Comparing the numbers of HG pilots who have suffered serious head trauma to those who didn't will be difficult. The pilots who came out fine won't have much to report. I have seen a breakdown of the types of injuries that both HG and PG pilots incurr, but I don't remember where. It may have been in the magazine.
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Last edited by Paul H on Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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