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HGXC
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #21   
sg wrote:
Im CERTAIN everyone would be perfectly fine with Iranian drones flying over the US homeland and killing people. Right? RIIIIIGHT?


But the double standard is ok, because you see, THEY are animals, and we are civil. Isnt that exactly what every fascist does? Convinces the public that the enemy is a dirty disgusting animal that should be killed? How did the nazi's describe the jews? How do we describe people we want to bomb?

Pfffft, the golden rule doesnt apply to these dirty animals, right? RIIIGHTTT???


Jack goes to Godwin's Rule again for drama. I didn't know that the people could protest and change Hitlers mind on a protential policy like what is happening with the US and SOPA and PIPA. I think Jack would have suffered a different outcome in Hitlers world.

I would love to never have to have any military but you first would have to garrenteet that no one outside of our boarders would ever hurt any US citizen anywhere on the planet. You arrange for that and we can lose the military.

Deal? Until then I want to be able to wipe out anyone that is a threat.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #22   
worthy of the death penalty
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/27/justice/connecticut-home-invasion-sentencing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



apparently not worth of the death penalty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings
The Mahmudiyah killings and gang-rape of a 14-year-old girl by U.S. troops occurred on March 12, 2006, in a house to the southwest of Yusufiyah, a village to the west of the town of Al-Mahmudiyah, Iraq. Five United States Army soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment were charged with the crimes: (i) Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, (ii) Spc. James P. Barker, (iii) Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, (iv) Pfc. Brian L. Howard and (v) Pfc. Steven D. Green (whom the army discharged before the crime's discovery). Abeer Qasim Hamza, 14, was raped and murdered, after her family was murdered: her mother, Fakhriyah Taha Muhsin, 34; father, Qasim Hamza Raheem, 45; and six-year-old sister Hadeel Qasim Hamza.[1] Spielman and Green have been convicted and three others have pled guilty.[2]

Green- Life imprison- no parole
Barker- 90 years- eligible for parole in 20
Cortez- 100 years- eligible for parole after 10
Spielmen- 110 years- eligible for parole after 10

how can they even consider letting these people out in 10-20 years-they should all be hung.......not only did they rape and murder....which in and of itself is deserving of the death penalty, but they did it in US uniform which further undermines any effort to "win hearts and minds", and then the US government does it again by giving such lenient sentences



Green was quoted as saying "I didn't think of Iraqis as humans"

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #23   
HGXC wrote:

Jack goes to Godwin's Rule again for drama.

You do realize godwins law is meaningless?
It has no bearing on the validity of an argument.

Militaries around the world condition their soldiers to believe the enemy is not human so its easier to kill them. Fascist regimes do this when genocide is their goal. Check your history. Its a common tactic.

Quote:

I didn't know that the people could protest and change Hitlers mind on a protential policy like what is happening with the US and SOPA and PIPA. I think Jack would have suffered a different outcome in Hitlers world.

You do realize that Hitler was voted into power legally, right???

Protesting BEFORE he had too much power could have actually worked.
Nothing would have happened to me in early germany protesting. After everyone waited far too long and Hitler became a dictator, THEN I would have disappeared. You know.... using one of those presidential powers similar to the NDAA bill that Obama just signed.


Quote:

I would love to never have to have any military

Strawman argument. Who in the world stated any such thing or even implied it??? Dont make stuff up.

I fully support a strong military for self defense.

I do not support a double standard of military acts of war, against other sovereign nations that would have every american citizen screaming if the same was done to us.

Do you support iranian drone strikes against american targets they consider a threat Dennis?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #24   
sg wrote:
HGXC wrote:

Jack goes to Godwin's Rule again for drama.

You do realize godwins law is meaningless?
It has no bearing on the validity of an argument.

Militaries around the world condition their soldiers to believe the enemy is not human so its easier to kill them. Fascist regimes do this when genocide is their goal. Check your history. Its a common tactic.

Quote:

I didn't know that the people could protest and change Hitlers mind on a protential policy like what is happening with the US and SOPA and PIPA. I think Jack would have suffered a different outcome in Hitlers world.

You do realize that Hitler was voted into power legally, right???

Protesting BEFORE he had too much power could have actually worked.
Nothing would have happened to me in early germany protesting. After everyone waited far too long and Hitler became a dictator, THEN I would have disappeared. You know.... using one of those presidential powers similar to the NDAA bill that Obama just signed.


Quote:

I would love to never have to have any military

Strawman argument. Who in the world stated any such thing or even implied it??? Dont make stuff up.

I fully support a strong military for self defense.

I do not support a double standard of military acts of war, against other sovereign nations that would have every american citizen screaming if the same was done to us.

Do you support iranian drone strikes against american targets they consider a threat Dennis?



One to equate our government with the Nazi is a loosing argument. You ignore the connotation and use this tactic every time you run into some authority or infringement on you view of what your freedom should be. Now I dislike people telling me what to do as much as you do and value my space. That is why i live on top of a mountain in the middle of a forest accessed by a dirt road Mr. Green

That said I have never associated the worst of my country's leadership with Nazi Germany and found it ironic that as soon as you went nuts yelling fascism the senator's pulled the Bill because there constituents were screaming at them and they probably finally read the damn think and saw how poorly it was written. So no we are not a fascist regime here.

Now with the military we just disagree with what is a good defense. You probably feel that they other guy has to throw the first punch and then you retaliate. I think that is I suspect a bad end with a stranger I am just going take care of him before he throws the first punch because in todays world the first punch can really hurt.

I get the sense that if Iran could they would bomb the crap out of us so I am not letting them get up out of the chair, i am going to remove the nukes one way or another.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #25   
Jason wrote:
do we really want a world where war can be waged without risk


risk is the only thing that really discourages one to wage war



Does anyone remember the StarTrek episode about the war with no damage, the people just walked into a place and disappeared because there number was picked by the computer???

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #26   
yes.........im tasteless......not the murdering son of a b**** in the photo and his buddies

Posting the photo of a murder victim on a hang gliding website was tasteless. I don't know anyone who comes to this website to see something like that.
I could come up with much stronger language than "TASTELESS" to describe the crimes that were committed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #27   
Actually, since the Third Reich has already been brought up, there's a better example of pilotless drones than the artillery analogy that I used: V-1 "buzz bombs". Already used in warfare (though vigorously disparaged) seventy years ago. New ones would simply be more accurate.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #28   
HGXC wrote:

That said I have never associated the worst of my country's leadership with Nazi Germany


Can you quote where I associated our leadership with nazi germany???

Quote:

..and found it ironic that as soon as you went nuts yelling fascism the senator's pulled the Bill because there constituents were screaming at them and they probably finally read the damn think and saw how poorly it was written. So no we are not a fascist regime here.


Can you quote me where I said were a fascist regime?

Trying to stop fascism from occurring in the first place, is entirely different from claiming were already fascists.

Fascism isnt black or white anyway, its a greyscale.

We have laws on the books now that allow our government to freely spy on us, and to indefinitely detain us on US soil with no due process or access to attorneys. If you dont recognize this as big steps towards fascism then you fail your history exam.


Quote:

Now with the military we just disagree with what is a good defense. You probably feel that they other guy has to throw the first punch and then you retaliate. I think that is I suspect a bad end with a stranger I am just going take care of him before he throws the first punch because in todays world the first punch can really hurt.

I get the sense that if Iran could they would bomb the crap out of us so I am not letting them get up out of the chair, i am going to remove the nukes one way or another.

Dennis


At least be honest with your choice of words Dennis. You believe in OFFENSE, not defense.

Certainly not compatible with the golden rule.

If Iran sent a drone here and killed an american it would be an act of war, and we would retaliate immediately.
But if we go there and do the same.... eh.... were special, laws, morality, none of the applies to us.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #29   
Quote:
Can you quote where I associated our leadership with nazi germany???


No you used imagry and laced posts with words like fascism. I 'm in marketing and I get the idea.

Just because there was a difference of opinion on some proposed Bill I thought that was over the top...but I guess it was effective.



Quote:
At least be honest with your choice of words Dennis. You believe in OFFENSE, not defense.



No to me offense would be ...hey lets just take over a country even though they are friendly or neutral to us.

In todays world of military it is no longer practical to wait until someone blasts you. you have to know what is in the enemy's minds and react before they are in position to do damage. We disagree Jack.

I live in the height of the cold war and I will never forget the feelings of damager that exist when you let anyone have the edge in military might over you. I hope my country always has that edge and then some.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #30   
HGXC wrote:
Quote:
Can you quote where I associated our leadership with nazi germany???


No you used imagry and laced posts with words like fascism. I 'm in marketing and I get the idea.

Just because there was a difference of opinion on some proposed Bill I thought that was over the top...but I guess it was effective.


So the answer is you CANT quote me. So stop making stuff up.
Yes, im painting a picture of fascism coming to america, BECAUSE IT IS.
That is not the same as saying we are fascists.

Do you deny that our Bill of Rights have been seriously eroded away???


Quote:

No to me offense would be ...hey lets just take over a country even though they are friendly or neutral to us.

In todays world of military it is no longer practical to wait until someone blasts you. you have to know what is in the enemy's minds and react before they are in position to do damage. We disagree Jack.

I live in the height of the cold war and I will never forget the feelings of damager that exist when you let anyone have the edge in military might over you. I hope my country always has that edge and then some.


Seems like using your philosophy we should have launched nukes at Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis. You know.... DEFENSE against a country seriously threatening us. Right?

Your position seems extremely inconsistent.

If we didnt immediately attack when NUCLEAR FRICKEN MISSLES were pointed at us THAT DAMN CLOSE in Cuba... can you please explain the threat from Iran, which obviously must be faaaaaar larger for us to be thinking about going to war with them. The war machine is gearing up already.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #31   
HGXC wrote:

No to me offense would be ...hey lets just take over a country even though they are friendly or neutral to us.
- you mean like we did in 1953 when we overthrew a democratically elected Iranian Regime that was friendly/neutral to us




Quote:

In todays world of military it is no longer practical to wait until someone blasts you. you have to know what is in the enemy's minds and react before they are in position to do damage. We disagree Jack.

I live in the height of the cold war and I will never forget the feelings of damager that exist when you let anyone have the edge in military might over you. I hope my country always has that edge and then some.

Dennis

cold war is over buddy

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #32   
HGXC wrote:

I live in the height of the cold war and I will never forget the feelings of damager that exist when you let anyone have the edge in military might over you. I hope my country always has that edge and then some.


Dennis,

China's military budget for 2011 is about 92 billion dollars.
Russias is less.

If you were president Dennis, what would you set the USA's military budget be compared to Chinas?

How much edge do you want in billions of dollars?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #33   
sg wrote:
Im CERTAIN everyone would be perfectly fine with Iranian drones flying over the US homeland and killing people. Right? RIIIIIGHT?


But the double standard is ok, because you see, THEY are animals, and we are civil. Isnt that exactly what every fascist does? Convinces the public that the enemy is a dirty disgusting animal that should be killed? How did the nazi's describe the jews? How do we describe people we want to bomb?

Pfffft, the golden rule doesnt apply to these dirty animals, right? RIIIGHTTT???


As an Iranian I agree. The Iranian GOVERNMENT (not the people) are a bunch of dirty animals who should be stoned or executed, like they do to women and gay 14 year olds.

Call me fascist all you want. For all its faults, what the US does is in no way morally equivalent to the actions of the Iranian government, which threaten the region's and the worlds interests through funding two terrorist organizations (Hezbollah and Hamas), attempting to build nukes, threatening to destroy Israel (but of course they want peaceful nuclear energy) and claiming it all in the name of the 12th Imam.

I'm sure Israel and Saudi Arabia (a rather interesting alliance) would more than gladly use these drones to fly over Iran and stop its nuclear program, if the US would sell them.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #34   
sg wrote:
HGXC wrote:
Quote:
Can you quote where I associated our leadership with nazi germany???


No you used imagry and laced posts with words like fascism. I 'm in marketing and I get the idea.

Just because there was a difference of opinion on some proposed Bill I thought that was over the top...but I guess it was effective.


So the answer is you CANT quote me. So stop making stuff up.
Yes, im painting a picture of fascism coming to america, BECAUSE IT IS.
That is not the same as saying we are fascists.

Do you deny that our Bill of Rights have been seriously eroded away???


Quote:

No to me offense would be ...hey lets just take over a country even though they are friendly or neutral to us.

In todays world of military it is no longer practical to wait until someone blasts you. you have to know what is in the enemy's minds and react before they are in position to do damage. We disagree Jack.

I live in the height of the cold war and I will never forget the feelings of damager that exist when you let anyone have the edge in military might over you. I hope my country always has that edge and then some.


Seems like using your philosophy we should have launched nukes at Cuba during the Cuban missle crisis. You know.... DEFENSE against a country seriously threatening us. Right?

Your position seems extremely inconsistent.

If we didnt immediately attack when NUCLEAR FRICKEN MISSLES were pointed at us THAT DAMN CLOSE in Cuba... can you please explain the threat from Iran, which obviously must be faaaaaar larger for us to be thinking about going to war with them. The war machine is gearing up already.


by Dennis's logic
Iran should Attack us (after all we have them surrounded with weapons)
Iran should attack israel- as its known that Israel has plans to strike and infact already has struck Iran
Taiwan should attack China
S. Korea should invade the north
France should invade Germany (if history is any indication its only a matter of time before Germany beats France again


ah. Preemptive War- the cause of and solution to all our problems

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #35   
Spitfire wrote:


As an Iranian I agree. The Iranian GOVERNMENT (not the people) are a bunch of dirty animals who should be stoned or executed, like they do to women and gay 14 year olds.


and that Government would never have existed if the US didn't overthrow a peaceful government and install the Shah

while i don't disagree with you- The US should only look in the mirror to discover how the 1979 Revolution came to pass

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #36   
Jason wrote:
Spitfire wrote:


As an Iranian I agree. The Iranian GOVERNMENT (not the people) are a bunch of dirty animals who should be stoned or executed, like they do to women and gay 14 year olds.


and that Government would never have existed if the US didn't overthrow a peaceful government and install the Shah

while i don't disagree with you- The US should only look in the mirror to discover how the 1979 Revolution came to pass


And then overthrow the Shah and install Khomeini.

What's happened can't be changed. What's important is what to do right now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #37   
Spitfire wrote:
Jason wrote:
Spitfire wrote:


As an Iranian I agree. The Iranian GOVERNMENT (not the people) are a bunch of dirty animals who should be stoned or executed, like they do to women and gay 14 year olds.


and that Government would never have existed if the US didn't overthrow a peaceful government and install the Shah

while i don't disagree with you- The US should only look in the mirror to discover how the 1979 Revolution came to pass


And then overthrow the Shah and install Khomeini.

What's happened can't be changed. What's important is what to do right now.

true- the past can't be changed


if the two countries were people- the offender might say "hey- Im sorry for screwing you over like that" at which point there might be reconcilliation

of course the US will likely never apologize for its misdeeds and installation of dictators

one would hope we might look to the future and realize that pointing guns at nations and telling them how its going to be only engenders resentment and hate- which is often enough for loons to come to power

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #38   
Jason wrote:
Spitfire wrote:
Jason wrote:
Spitfire wrote:


As an Iranian I agree. The Iranian GOVERNMENT (not the people) are a bunch of dirty animals who should be stoned or executed, like they do to women and gay 14 year olds.


and that Government would never have existed if the US didn't overthrow a peaceful government and install the Shah

while i don't disagree with you- The US should only look in the mirror to discover how the 1979 Revolution came to pass


And then overthrow the Shah and install Khomeini.

What's happened can't be changed. What's important is what to do right now.

true- the past can't be changed


if the two countries were people- the offender might say "hey- Im sorry for screwing you over like that" at which point there might be reconcilliation

of course the US will likely never apologize for its misdeeds and installation of dictators

one would hope we might look to the future and realize that pointing guns at nations and telling them how its going to be only engenders resentment and hate- which is often enough for loons to come to power


Nah, not gonna happen with a theocracy. Their interpretation of the Koran is the word and that's not going to change.

You can negotiate with secular governments, theocracies like Iran and the Taliban put their beliefs over the best interests of their people.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #39   
Spitfire wrote:

Nah, not gonna happen with a theocracy. Their interpretation of the Koran is the word and that's not going to change.

You can negotiate with secular governments, theocracies like Iran and the Taliban put their beliefs over the best interests of their people.


let me clarify

apologize to the PEOPLE of Iran, I have personally never met an Iranian that wasn't reasonable

the People of Iran overthrew the last government- unfortunately that revolution was hijacked by nuts

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #40   
Jason wrote:
Spitfire wrote:

Nah, not gonna happen with a theocracy. Their interpretation of the Koran is the word and that's not going to change.

You can negotiate with secular governments, theocracies like Iran and the Taliban put their beliefs over the best interests of their people.


let me clarify

apologize to the PEOPLE of Iran, I have personally never met an Iranian that wasn't reasonable

the People of Iran overthrew the last government- unfortunately that revolution was hijacked by nuts


You can apologize to my parents all you want (who were forced to leave Iran just after the revolution). Not going to stop the crazies.
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