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ChattaroyMan
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Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Location: Chattaroy, WA -USA
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 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:40 am Post subject: |
 #21 |
I sure can't add much more - good stuff on this thread ...
It has been a year now since I got back at it. This year I've decided not to fly with instruments - waiting to get a 6015 for 2012. Not having a vario makes thermalling a bit more challenging. I pretty much only fly mountain sites or lower "hills" near mountains so I have topography off to my left and right where I can see if I am climbing or sinking. I often look off to my left, right or ahead and watch a hilltop or ridge top in the distance. If I can see more and more of the stuff behind that point I know I'm climbing. I do this mainly to determine if I'm climbing throughout a 360. Thermals are pretty easy to feel once you first enter them. Afterwards they are harder to feel whether or not you are climbing. I also pay attention to temperature. If you're in good lift you'll feel it getting cooler over time (the quicker the change the better the lift). Smell helps to. If you're smelling ground based stuff - it had to get where you are somehow. Lastly, timid souls likely are not very good at thermal flying. One has to be aggressive. You can be all over the bar keeping your glider in the bank and at the speed you want to fly - at least at first. Once you begin to get dialed into the thermal you're in you'll find it takes less effort. It can be very disconcerting when you are putting left turn inputs into your glider and it goes right. If you spend too much time thinking that something's wrong with your glider - there goes your thermal without you.
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dave hopkins
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Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 722
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
#22 |
| J Fritsche wrote: |
When you're circling and the vario indicates stronger lift, make a mental note of the direction you're heading at that moment and continue to circle. As you're about to be on the same heading--in the same part of the 360--that made the vario beep faster a couple/few seconds ago, flatten out your turn. Repeat.
Another way of putting it: As the vario beeps stronger, make your bank angle less sharp, and then as the vario starts to back off, increase your bank angle and push-out to quickly spin back around into the stronger lift.
I don't know how well I've explained it, but it's the technique for staying centered in the strongest part of a thermal by constantly re-centering. If it's a thermal with a wide, strong core, you'll end up with a pretty constant and pretty steep bank angle...but it's the recentering that gets you into that sweet spot. |
A sail plane techneqic We learned from Jim lamb at the at TC > Once centered in the thermal turn at a constant bank. The way to do this is to look at your in board wings position on the horizon. Say your wing is half below the horizon. keep it there. That makes us fly a constant circle. Make small adjustments for drift. This often gets us the best climb rate , keeps us in the best lift and saves a lot of energy flying XC or long flights. .
I would often chase the core flattening and banking to get the best climb but when I started doing the constant circle my climb was better and I am more relaxed and thinking about my next move. Some stuff we would never figure out if someone didn't tell us.
dave |
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mlbco
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Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 517
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:25 am Post subject: |
#23 |
| J Fritsche wrote: |
| ...Another way of putting it: As the vario beeps stronger, make your bank angle less sharp, and then as the vario starts to back off, increase your bank angle and push-out to quickly spin back around into the stronger lift. |
I experimented with this technique at a recent competition and it works well enough on "perfect" thermals, i.e. those that have a defined core. What I didn't expect was that many thermals had "sharp" edges where the lift would reach a maximum at the edge of the thermal and immediately transition to sink. I encountered this many times on different days of flying and the only way to deal with this was to bank harder as the lift increased (opposite of what is described above) to stay in the thermal. It seems that no matter what trick we come up with there are always exceptions to the rule.
What I ended up doing as the contest progressed was to fly very aggressively down low (turn hard in any lift, bank angle >30 deg, and search carefully downwind for stronger air). When the lift became wider and more organized I tried more "theoretical" techniques like the one mentioned above.
Of course, the best thing to do in a comp or when flying in a group is to watch the other pilots and see how they're doing. Thermal markers always trump thermal theories!
Steve |
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dave hopkins
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Joined: 25 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
#24 |
| mlbco wrote: |
| J Fritsche wrote: |
| ...Another way of putting it: As the vario beeps stronger, make your bank angle less sharp, and then as the vario starts to back off, increase your bank angle and push-out to quickly spin back around into the stronger lift. |
I experimented with this technique at a recent competition and it works well enough on "perfect" thermals, i.e. those that have a defined core. What I didn't expect was that many thermals had "sharp" edges where the lift would reach a maximum at the edge of the thermal and immediately transition to sink. I encountered this many times on different days of flying and the only way to deal with this was to bank harder as the lift increased (opposite of what is described above) to stay in the thermal. It seems that no matter what trick we come up with there are always exceptions to the rule.
What I ended up doing as the contest progressed was to fly very aggressively down low (turn hard in any lift, bank angle >30 deg, and search carefully downwind for stronger air). When the lift became wider and more organized I tried more "theoretical" techniques like the one mentioned above.
Of course, the best thing to do in a comp or when flying in a group is to watch the other pilots and see how they're doing. Thermal markers always trump thermal theories!
Steve |
This is true, down low anything goes! Stay in the lift! It can be wide and light or a snakey dusty type core. look hard for a pattern. fly the ground. Look for climbing birds. Carry big napkins and release it into the core to mark it.
I remember a flight down to NJ from Ellenville. I had jumped over the back near Port Jervis chasing clouds. Got lots of sink and soon I was in an area of poor LZs. I hit an area of broken lift (500 agl) as I was pondering which crappy LZ to pick.
I start chasing the light lift looking for a climb. Three times I drift with the lift ,lost it came back to the area. Finally a black vulture show me how it was done. he was circling well below me. I came over him and stuck to him like glue. It was solid 100 up and I climbed 1000' and got out of there.
Being patient when the going gets tough is a real skill. I remember there wasn't much drift even though it was breezy and the lift was weak. That's what fooled me I kept expecting more drift. or was chasing spurs breaking off the main thermal. It's tough to map out something we can not see and have limited time to figure it out. It feels good when we finally climb away to the comfort of the clouds.
dave |
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REALBADGUN
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 5
Location: CORONA, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
#25 |
| Would someone suggest a good book on thermal flying ? thank's |
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pjwings
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Location: Tennessee
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bisleybob
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Location: east coast, England, UK
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: |
#27 |
here is a good one.
once you find the thermal look at the shadow of the cloud on the floor now look at your own shadow. note how far behind the cloud yours is, if you loose it place yourself the same difference behind the cloud and ye shall find it again.
as you get closer to the cloud that distance will be less and less bare this in mind.
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blindrodie
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: |
#28 |
I've found that if I fly my shadow on the upwind edge of the clouds shadow I have reasonable success. 
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ChattaroyMan
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Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Location: Chattaroy, WA -USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
#29 |
Questions.... Just what have you guys experienced in regards to young thermal shape vs. thermal source topography? I'm inclined to surmise that flat land thermals tend to be circular whereas thermals coming off a high point on a ridge are less circular and more elongated - with the axis of elongation being the direction of drift (or opposite of such as N-S or E-W, etc.).
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SimonHK
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Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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Location: Godalming, UK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: |
#30 |
I've always been told that reacting to the vario means reacting late, and we should react to how the glider feels and then confirm with the vario after.
SimonHK |
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wmstroud
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Location: Arlington, Tenessee
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: |
#31 |
If you want to be a good thermal pilot my best advice to you is , "Get to know your glider." While your making your sled runs learn to turn your glider. I'm talking about getting comfortable making 20, 45, 60 degree banked turns in both directions. Until you do this thermaling with be a delusion. Learn how to fly at all speeds, slow and fast. Do these things up high so that if you screw it up it's no big deal. The reason I push this method is because in thermal flying your going to find yourself in all kinds of attitudes. You will need the confidence that is gained by exploring the flight envelope your glider offers you. Failure to do this will not allow you to be relaxed in these variable conditions. If your not relaxed you will not be able to read the ever changing air around you. This confidence level is what seperates the great thermal pilots from the occasionally lucky thermal pilots. It's all about having a good foundation before you jump into the mix. I would advise you to set a task every time you fly. Ex. This flight I'm going to turn left. Everytime I make a 360 I'm going to steepen the turn until I'm 60 degrees in the bank. These task will teach you about airspeed, g forces, and pitch control. I can promise you developing these skills will give you the aggressiveness that is necessary to thermal efficently. After these skills are learned the ability to find and stay centered in a thermal will almost be second nature.
Miller Stroud
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dave hopkins
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Joined: 25 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:01 am Post subject: |
#32 |
| wmstroud wrote: |
If you want to be a good thermal pilot my best advice to you is , "Get to know your glider." While your making your sled runs learn to turn your glider. I'm talking about getting comfortable making 20, 45, 60 degree banked turns in both directions. Until you do this thermaling with be a delusion. Learn how to fly at all speeds, slow and fast. Do these things up high so that if you screw it up it's no big deal. The reason I push this method is because in thermal flying your going to find yourself in all kinds of attitudes. You will need the confidence that is gained by exploring the flight envelope your glider offers you. Failure to do this will not allow you to be relaxed in these variable conditions. If your not relaxed you will not be able to read the ever changing air around you. This confidence level is what seperates the great thermal pilots from the occasionally lucky thermal pilots. It's all about having a good foundation before you jump into the mix. I would advise you to set a task every time you fly. Ex. This flight I'm going to turn left. Everytime I make a 360 I'm going to steepen the turn until I'm 60 degrees in the bank. These task will teach you about airspeed, g forces, and pitch control. I can promise you developing these skills will give you the aggressiveness that is necessary to thermal efficently. After these skills are learned the ability to find and stay centered in a thermal will almost be second nature.
Miller Stroud |
Don't make it so easy for him 
dave |
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noman3
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Joined: 09 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:25 am Post subject: |
#33 |
i would tell u my secret but i would have to kill you and your dog.
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Darbbb
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: |
#34 |
My dog is 13 years old and blind, but I still like his chances  |
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TomGalvin
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Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
#35 |
| SimonHK wrote: |
| I've always been told that reacting to the vario means reacting late, |
Depends on the vario, but for most there is a delay built in which is adjustable. The old breadbox and liteks were mostly instantaneous.
| Quote: |
| and we should react to how the glider feels |
You cannot feel lift. you can only feel vertical acceleration or deceleration. You may feel a change from 500fpm sink to 200fpm sink, but it is still sink.
You can however SEE that you are going up or going down, IF you are paying attention and able to use a fixed point of terrain for reference. If you are going up, more stuff comes into your peripheral vision, if you are going down you see less stuff. For me, the max distance for my aging eyes is about 3000-4000 agl.
| Quote: |
| then confirm with the vario after. |
Yep
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dave hopkins
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
#36 |
| Tom Galvin wrote: |
| Simon wrote: |
| I've always been told that reacting to the vario means reacting late, |
Depends on the vario, but for most there is a delay built in which is adjustable. The old breadbox and liteks were mostly instantaneous.
| Quote: |
| and we should react to how the glider feels |
You cannot feel lift. you can only feel vertical acceleration or deceleration. You may feel a change from 500 fpm sink to 200 fpm sink, but it is still sink.
You can however SEE that you are going up or going down, IF you are paying attention and able to use a fixed point of terrain for reference. If you are going up, more stuff comes into your peripheral vision, if you are going down you see less stuff. For me, the max distance for my aging eyes is about 3000-4000 agl.
| Quote: |
| then confirm with the vario after. |
Yep |
The vario is a tool . It helps us map out the area of lift and After a few turns we should have figured out a plan on how to work the area. once in the best lift we should be anticipating our next move ahead of time. Even acting ahead of the gliders lag to our control inputs. The vario averger confirms the rightness of our decisions. Stay fluid. Nothing stay the same for long.
It is nice when your above the inversion and turn radius and drift stays about the same while you wait for the wispys to make their appearance.
dave |
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ChattaroyMan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: |
#37 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| You can however SEE that you are going up or going down, IF you are paying attention and able to use a fixed point of terrain for reference. If you are going up, more stuff comes into your peripheral vision, if you are going down you see less stuff. For me, the max distance for my aging eyes is about 3000-4000 agl. |
I'm with Tom. I'd try to fly without instruments - once, more, whatever you like. Rely a bit more on your senses in a flight. Batteries do run down. Vision is really the best instrument we have.
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TomGalvin
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
#38 |
But I'm with Dave. Use your senses, but take advantage of the vario as well.
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noman3
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
#39 |
nope dident like it
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ChattaroyMan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
#40 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| But I'm with Dave. Use your senses, but take advantage of the vario as well. |
I'll be with Dave too - next year when I get a vario. I'm enjoying flying without instruments now. I have to rely on sight, smell, touch, feel (temp.) even sound (various noises glider makes when in lift - rush of air for speed). The better I get at it the longer my flights. It will be fun to compare what I've learned about the main site I've been flying this year to what I learn about it next year with a 6015. Since I've only flown with wrist altimeters and Litek varios in the past (75-81) I'm looking forward to the offerings of a 6015/6030. I'm also planning on flying a new site that will require adequate lift to reach the nearest decent LZ - an 8/1 glide from launch. For it I'll want/need as much input on lift and performance as I can get.
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