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Davedebogusone
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #41   
My take on this lefty version civil whine,. is that it has something to do with cloward / piven and is exact opposite to the tea party movement.

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Mavi Gogun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #42   
Check out this very topical article from On the Media (the program that reports weekly on reporting):

http://www.onthemedia.org/2011/oct/07/occupy-wall-street/
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Darbbb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #43   
As soon as you invoke the name of Michael Moore, i'm out of the argument. Has there ever lived a bigger (literally and figuratively) hypocrite? This guy goes on talk shows in Goodwill clothes and feed cap, complaining about the fat cat corporations and the greed of the wealthy. In the meantime he enjoys a penthouse apartment in Manhattan, a beachfront mansion in Michigan, redcarpet treatment at his movie premieres, and expensive Hollywood parties (where, amazingly, he shows up in his Armani tux, not his Goodwill clothes) all on the tens of millions he's made from "documentaries" distributed by Sony, which was, last time I checked, a huge, multinational corporation. That guy is phony to the core.
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pipefuser
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #44   
As I hear the various issues i can't keep from thinking that failed goverment polices and or programs are the root cause for most of them. It pains me to hear so many complaining about greed and then asking for more benifits in the next breath.
Sure we have problems, and I also believe that there are many who are really paid to much for the work they do. But it is not the place of goverment to regulate income levels in the private sector. Although I would like to see a movement by shareholders to start questioning corporate salaries at shareholders meetings.
As far as corporations sending jobs overseas, thank our enviromental laws and tax codes. Are we really saving the world when we drive the nasty industries across the border where they don't worry about pollution. Are we moving in the right direction when we constantly enact legislation that makes it more profitable for industries (jobs) to move overseas?
My fix?
1. Reform the tax code, go with something like the Fair tax Plan, that gets rid of the complexity and all the loopholes.
2. Prohibit appointed alphabet agencies and beaurocrats from making laws.
All laws should be made by elected represenatives.
3. Tell everyone, You are responceable for your own life.
4. Investigate and prosecute any goverment official that commits fraud or any act of corruption.

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noman3
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #45   
pipefuser wrote:
As I hear the various issues i can't keep from thinking that failed goverment polices and or programs are the root cause for most of them. It pains me to hear so many complaining about greed and then asking for more benifits in the next breath.
Sure we have problems, and I also believe that there are many who are really paid to much for the work they do. But it is not the place of goverment to regulate income levels in the private sector. Although I would like to see a movement by shareholders to start questioning corporate salaries at shareholders meetings.
As far as corporations sending jobs overseas, thank our enviromental laws and tax codes. Are we really saving the world when we drive the nasty industries across the border where they don't worry about pollution. Are we moving in the right direction when we constantly enact legislation that makes it more profitable for industries (jobs) to move overseas?
My fix?
1. Reform the tax code, go with something like the Fair tax Plan, that gets rid of the complexity and all the loopholes.
2. Prohibit appointed alphabet agencies and beaurocrats from making laws.
All laws should be made by elected represenatives.
3. Tell everyone, You are responceable for your own life.
4. Investigate and prosecute any goverment official that commits fraud or any act of corruption.


add to that

no carrier politicians
purge the government every 10 years
separation of government and corporations
reduce government size..
follow the constitution to the word.


i also know that if we bring back most of our troupes and cut military spending by 1/3 we could have social security paid back in full in just a few years.
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Dan Harding
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #46   
Darbbb wrote:
As soon as you invoke the name of Michael Moore, i'm out of the argument. Has there ever lived a bigger (literally and figuratively) hypocrite? This guy goes on talk shows in Goodwill clothes and feed cap, complaining about the fat cat corporations and the greed of the wealthy. In the meantime he enjoys a penthouse apartment in Manhattan, a beachfront mansion in Michigan, redcarpet treatment at his movie premieres, and expensive Hollywood parties (where, amazingly, he shows up in his Armani tux, not his Goodwill clothes) all on the tens of millions he's made from "documentaries" distributed by Sony, which was, last time I checked, a huge, multinational corporation. That guy is phony to the core.


Thank You, and Well Said!!!!

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FMAN
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #47   
http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

Quote:
O’Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, “Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can’t find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can’t see a doctor when they’re sick, that we shouldn’t have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn’t have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I’ll be that spokesman.”


http://www.politicususa.com/en/occupy-wall-street-murdoch

Quote:
The one percent have their media machine churning out their propaganda 24/7, but they are fighting a message war that they are destined to lose.


Last edited by FMAN on Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mavi Gogun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #48   
Darbbb wrote:
As soon as you invoke the name of Michael Moore, i'm out of the argument.


Assuming good faith- maybe English is a second language for you -"i'm out of the argument" would preclude most of what followed; considering what did, internal consistency doesn't appear to be a priority.

Your understanding of "hypocrisy" is horribly flawed - Moore is no more engage in deception via false appearance or inconsistency of word and action than was Steve Jobs sporting jeans and a turtle neck. The idea that any wealth precludes one from speaking with sincerity or authority on maters of injustice is ludicrous. His body of work bespeaks, whether you find it savory or not, consistency. There is no contradiction in advocating business ethics and engaging in business; nor does holding businesses to account for their misdeeds equate to a simplistic advocacy against any and all large, successful enterprises. Your assessment of the contents of his character is petty, superficially dismissive. Don't like him? Cool. Wana tell us about it? Please do- but don't wast our time with such lazy, carelessly disgorged refuse. Make an effort, think, craft - as though you care about your convictions. Otherwise, why should we?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #49   
Quote:
Filmmaker Michael Moore has made a career out of trashing corporations and said he doesn't own any stocks due to moral principle.


hy·poc·ri·sy
Noun:
The practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform;


Quote:

How then did author Peter Schweizer uncover IRS documents showing that Moore's very own foundation has bought stocks in some of America's largest corporations – including Halliburton, other defense contractors and some of the same companies he has attacked? ...

He once said that major defense contractor Halliburton was run by a bunch of "thugs," and suggested that for every American killed in the Iraq war, "I would like Halliburton to slay one mid-level executive."

Publicly, Moore has claimed he wants no part of these companies and won't own stock.

In his book "Stupid White Men," he wrote: "I don't own a single share of stock."

He repeated the claim in a 1997 letter to the online magazine Salon, saying: "I don't own any stock."

Privately, however, he tells the IRS a different story, Schweizer discloses in his book.

The year that Moore claimed in "Stupid White Men" that he didn't own any stock, he told the IRS that a foundation totally controlled by Moore and his wife had more than $280,000 in corporate stock and nearly $100,000 in corporate bonds.

Over the past five years, Moore's holdings have "included such evil pharmaceutical and medical companies as Pfizer, Merck, Genzyme, Elan PLC, Eli Lilly, Becton Dickinson and Boston Scientific," writes Schweizer, whose earlier works include "The Bushes" and "Reagan's War."

"Moore's supposedly nonexistent portfolio also includes big bad energy giants like Sunoco, Noble Energy, Schlumberger, Williams Companies, Transocean Sedco Forex and Anadarko, all firms that 'deplete irreplaceable fossil fuels in the name of profit' as he put it in ‘Dude, Where's My Country?'

"And in perhaps the ultimate irony, he also has owned shares in Halliburton. According to IRS filings, Moore sold Halliburton for a 15 percent profit and bought shares in Noble, Ford, General Electric (another defense contractor), AOL Time Warner (evil corporate media) and McDonald's.

"Also on Moore's investment menu: defense contractors Honeywell, Boeing and Loral."

Does Moore share the stock proceeds of his "foundation" with charitable causes, you might ask?

Schweizer found that "for a man who by 2002 had a net worth in eight figures, he gave away a modest $36,000 through the foundation, much of it to his friends in the film business or tony cultural organizations that later provided him with venues to promote his books and film."

Moore's hypocrisy doesn't end with his financial holdings.

He has criticized the journalism industry and Hollywood for their lack of African-Americans in prominent positions, and in 1998 he said he personally wanted to hire minorities "who come from the working class."

In "Stupid White Men," he proclaimed his plans to "hire only black people."

But when Schweizer checked the senior credits for Moore's latest film "Fahrenheit 911," he found that of the movie's 14 producers, three editors, production manager and production coordinator, all 19 were white. So were all three cameramen and the two people who did the original music.

On "Bowling for Columbine," 13 of the 14 producers were white, as were the two executives in charge of production, the cameramen, the film editor and the music composer.

His show "TV Nation" had 13 producers, four film editors and 10 writers – but not a single African-American among them.

And as for Moore's insistence on portraying himself as "working class" and an "average Joe," Schweizer recounts this anecdote:

"When Moore flew to London to visit people at the BBC or promote a film, he took the Concorde and stayed at the Ritz. But he also allegedly booked a room at a cheap hotel down the street where he could meet with journalists and pose as a ‘man of humble circumstances.'"

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Darbbb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #50   
Mavi

Explaining why invoking Michael Moore and his particular brand of lying and hypocrisy takes a given argument into the arena of the just-plain-silly is in no way inconsistent. I know you like to bolster your arguments with lots of puffery and over-writing in an attempt to make your arguments sound smarter than they actually are; I'm an English professor, and my freshmen students frequently make the same mistake. I will tell you, though, that if doing so is part of your rhetorical makeup, then you should take extra care not to misspell words like "engage," "action," "whether," "waste," and so on. And really, all you need to be is clear; the wordiness of your writing style just makes you come off as condescending, which I'm sure in person you are not. As to hypocrisy, Michael Moore makes tens of millions of dollars by attacking the very thing that he is. So, he's either a hypocrite or filled with self-loathing. I believe the former. You don't. So, there you have it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #51   
I don't know much about Michael Moore's background, stock holdings, racial preferences, religious beliefs, or the size of his underwear (XXL I presume), but I like the films I've seen (Roger and Me, Bowling for Columbine, and Capitalism: A Love Story). In any type of art or literature, I prefer to judge the creation, rather than the character of the creator. The fact that I tend to agree with the viewpoints expressed in his films probably doesn't hurt, either. Smile

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zamuro
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #52   
Darbbb wrote:
As soon as you invoke the name of Michael Moore, i'm out of the argument. Has there ever lived a bigger (literally and figuratively) hypocrite? This guy goes on talk shows in Goodwill clothes and feed cap, complaining about the fat cat corporations and the greed of the wealthy. In the meantime he enjoys a penthouse apartment in Manhattan, a beachfront mansion in Michigan, redcarpet treatment at his movie premieres, and expensive Hollywood parties (where, amazingly, he shows up in his Armani tux, not his Goodwill clothes) all on the tens of millions he's made from "documentaries" distributed by Sony, which was, last time I checked, a huge, multinational corporation. That guy is phony to the core.


Yep. I may agree with some of the things that the protesters say. But.. anything that includes MMoore loses credibility.
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Darbbb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #53   
JR

I understand your larger point and pretty much agree with it; I don't care if Hemingway was an a$$hole, I still like his novels and short stories. I think the difference here is that Michael Moore makes *himself* so much a part of every movie that he directs, that it's hard to see him as just some behind-the-scenes storyteller; he's not. So, I think by putting himself so prominently in his own films about (often) corporate hypocrisy, he makes himself fair game to charges of his own hypocrisy, which in turn colors the perception of his viewpoints. He is to my mind the left's answer to Glenn Beck, another commentator who more often than not finds a way to make himself the story (and resorts to lunacy in the effort to do so). The other problem with some of MM's work is that it's presented as documentary, but he often plays very fast and very loose with key facts (again, much like GB). For example, in Roger & Me, the entire conceit of the movie, the entire "plot" if you will was that MM was chasing down GM president Roger Smith hoping to get an interview, but that Roger Smith kept ducking and evading. It turns out (and this has been confirmed) that Roger Smith in fact sat down with MM on three separate occasions and did in fact grant him an interview which was filmed; that fact just didn't happen to fit the movie. I sometimes agree with his politics, sometimes not, but it's just hard to trust him as a person or filmmaker.

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Mavi Gogun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #54   
For those unfamiliar, Moore gained access to GM for his earliest film, Roger and Me, by being a stockholder- and sought to do the same (gain access via share holder meetings, bulletins, right-to-know) for subsequent films. Either you believe his assertion that his foundation's ownership of stock in companies that he has loudly proclaimed despicable is for the same purpose (access), or you think it is more likely that he is both a sociopath and monumentally stupid. Of course, presenting information out of critical context is lying. Given Peter Schweizer's willingness to do so (he is the source for the stock 'revelation'), he lacks all credibility.

Darbbb wrote:
I know you like to bolster your arguments with lots of puffery and over-writing in an attempt to make your arguments sound smarter than they actually are


Ahh- now you claim insight into the content of my character. It is my preference to say, as well as I am able, what I mean. Succinct, but without room for easy misinterpretation by the discerning reader. Economy is the hallmark of a master (pilot/painter/poet), for sure- but don't confuse economy with simplicity -the result is mediocre.


Last edited by Mavi Gogun on Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Darbbb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #55   
The word is "prose."

"Prows" would be, I guess, the plural of the name for the forward part of a ship. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.

B
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rafaelcjr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #56   
Darbbb wrote:
As soon as you invoke the name of Michael Moore, i'm out of the argument. Has there ever lived a bigger (literally and figuratively) hypocrite? .........

Michael Moore is no more a Hypocrite than
George Washington or Abraham Lincoln were in their time.
Problem is we live in weird crazy times when a Man like Steve Jobs is idolized
and a Man like Bill Gates is seen as the Devil incarnate.


pipefuser wrote:
As I hear the various issues i can't keep from thinking that failed goverment polices and
or programs are the root cause for most of them.

Oh Yeah, You must be talking about these Failed Gvt policies/programs:
-Mandatory reserve requirements for banks
-Federal interest rate ceilings on deposit accounts
-State usury laws that limited the rates lenders could charge on residential mortgage loans


Oh Wait, all these government regulations (that were working) were stripped away in 1980
by the "Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980"

----
Or maybe you are talking about these Failed policies:
- Federal Ceiling on direct investments by savings institutions in nonresidential real estate
- Regulation disallowing savings and loans to make commercial, corporate, business or agricultural loans


Oh Wait, all these government regulations (that were working) were stripped away in 1982 by the "Garn-St. Germain Depository Institutions Act"

----
Or maybe you are talking about these Failed policies:
- Regulation separating commercial banks from investment banks
- Regulations about approval for establishment of a bank holding companies
and prohibition such companies acquiring a bank in another state.


Oh Wait, all these regulations(that were working) were stipped away in 1999 by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act
which at once did away with Glass-Steagall and the 1956 BHC Act

You see this "LONG TRAIN OF ABUSES AND USURPATIONS" (by the moneyed insterest and their lobbyists corrupting our gvt) has
been chugging along for about 30yrs now in this country, It's just now that it all has come to a boil.
In the Meantime (during those 30yrs) we all enjoyed our freedoms in a sort of "Comfortably Numb" situation and
did not pay heed to the "Michael Moores" of these 3 decades.

By the way it does not matter Democrat/Republican -- the US government has long been bought out by the Moneyed interests
- which we been warned about by Eisenhower and many others throughtout the years.
Eisenhower (1961)
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence,
whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous
rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.
We should take nothing for granted. "


I recommend you watch the documentary INSIDE JOB to get a little taste of the wholesale DE-Regulation that allowed this crisis to happen.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/

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Mavi Gogun
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #57   
Darbbb wrote:
The word is "prose."

"Prows" would be, I guess, the plural of the name for the forward part of a ship. I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.

B


Pointing that out, despite your ease of understanding, illustrates the pettiness of which I spoke; focusing on the superficial over substance.
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Darbbb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #58   
Mavi, you are misunderstanding.

The point is, when you present an argument, you are not trying to do so in a clear, direct way. Instead, you like to resort to puffed-up sentences, overwriting, purple prose, multi-syllabic words, and so on. As I said, it's something I see often in the freshman comp classes I teach, the same classes I have been teaching for 20 years. It's a common rhetorical mistake. Students want to use diction that they would never use in conversation, just in an effort to "sound smarter," as they often say. I am just pointing out to you that if you wish to go that route as a way of making your points (and it's clear that you do), then you need to make sure that your prose is clean, otherwise you are just undercutting all that effort you put into trying to "sound smart." If you use the five-dollar words and keep misspelling them, then you are just tripping over your own feet.

I prefer an honest argument, presently clearly, without all the puffery, but that's just me.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #59   
Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, ideals, thoughts, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have.Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.

Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches.

FWIW--I find Mavi's posts on this subject the most cogent, and articulate. Just because he doesn't misspell every other word doesn't make him "elitist." He is putting thought into what he is saying--and if one cares to carefully parse exactly what he is saying, there is meaning there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #60   
Mavi Gogun wrote:
For those unfamiliar, Moore gained access to GM for his earliest film, Roger and Me, by being a stockholder- and sought to do the same (gain access via share holder meetings, bulletins, right-to-know) for subsequent films. Either you believe his assertion that his foundation's ownership of stock in companies that he has loudly proclaimed despicable is for the same purpose (access), or you think it is more likely that he is both a sociopath and monumentally stupid. Of course, presenting information out of critical context is lying. Given Peter Schweizer's willingness to do so (he is the source for the stock 'revelation'), he lacks all credibility.



Funny how it takes a single instance of "presenting information out of critical context is lying" by Peter Schweizer for you to conclude he lacks all credibility.
But Moore is caught numerous times lying about stock ownership, and you jump to defend him at every turn.

It's entertaining how you apply radically different standards to your savior Moore Laughing


Quote:
In "Stupid White Men," he proclaimed his plans to "hire only black people."

^^^ I want to hear the Mavi excuse for this too!

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