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dayhead
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #21   
" Should we really fly wings that the only way of survival after a collapse is a reserve."

I know little of PG, but I get the feeling that this was a PG pilot commenting on the collapse recovery characteristics of high performance competition wings.

As I understand it, the DHV 1-2 type of PG has relatively good collapse recovery characteristics, while the really hot dog comp ones don't.

I've heard that some of these comp wings don't re-inflate after collapsing.
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mlbco
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #22   
I don't know what happened at the paraglider world meet and I look forward to finding out more, but if you think this news in any way indicates that your hang glider is safer, think again.

Does anyone remember the 6 Italian hang glider pilots who were killed at a meet in 1988 after getting sucked into a thunderstorm? How about the Manufacturer's League meet (1989?) where D. Cassetta died, Howard Osterlund deployed, and many others were forced down in the Banning Pass? How about the 2010 aerobatics competition at Crestline where Tom Mayer was killed and Bill Soderquist deployed? These are just a few examples of experienced pilots at competitions getting into situations that exceeded the limits of their wings and they paid the price. What happened at the paragliding meet could be the same type of situation, we don't have any of the facts to know more. If the advanced competition designs are unsafe, this is a tragic way to find out, but it doesn't prove that all paraglider types are equally unsafe.

I don't fly PG but this news doesn't give me any comfort about flying a hang glider. I think that when the facts come out there will be something for all of us to learn from this tragedy.

Steve
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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #23   
Hi Bob,

Didn't read your post thoroughly mainly because you didn't have your quotes properly formatted.

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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #24   
Quote:
...but if you think this news in any way indicates that your hang glider is safer, think again.


Actually it does. You have to reach back a long long ways to find such an accident which has little or nothing to do with what happened here.

BTW, it was not the 1989 Manufacturer's League Meet. That was at Pine Mountain in Oregon.

I've already pointed to the problem with pilot error and aerobatics.

As I have repeatedly said hang gliding and paragliding are dangerous sports, but they are not the same sports and not dangerous for the same reasons.

Paraglider pilots are well aware and well versed in the issue of the two liners.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #25   
davisstraub wrote:
Quote:
...but if you think this news in any way indicates that your hang glider is safer, think again.


Actually it does. You have to reach back a long long ways to find such an accident which has little or nothing to do with what happened here.

BTW, it was not the 1989 Manufacturer's League Meet. That was at Pine Mountain in Oregon.

I've already pointed to the problem with pilot error and aerobatics.

As I have repeatedly said hang gliding and paragliding are dangerous sports, but they are not the same sports and not dangerous for the same reasons.

Paraglider pilots are well aware and well versed in the issue of the two liners.

Davis,

I'm pretty sure it was the Manufacturer's League Meet and it happened in the Banning Pass, I have witnesses who were in the air that day! Maybe there was another event at Pine Mountain with similar tragedy, but I don't know of it. It's amazing that a Google search turns up almost nothing on these events, as if they never occurred.

The only reason I went back to 1988 is that my memory for these incidents was at a peak around then. After that I devoted my efforts to Class 2 gliders and haven't followed the problems of flex wings and Class 5 gliders very closely. It would be interesting to compare statistics of hang glider deployments in competitions (worldwide) with paragliders, normalized for the number of participants and hours flown. I wonder if the data exists? The aerobatics meet in 2010 caught my attention because the carnage indicated a possible new era of danger associated with topless wings and aerobatics, similar to what might be happening with advanced paraglider designs and turbulence. Paragliders and weight shift hang gliders both have nonrecoverable flight modes and they are fundamentally related because of this. I realize that the modes themselves are very different but they often share the same causes; turbulence and aerobatic maneuvers.

Steve
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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #26   
Yes, but it wasn't 1989. I remember the meet that you are referring to. I assume it was 1988.

There were no tragedies, only great fun at the 1989 Pine Mountain Manufacturer's League Meet. Let me assure you because I was there and it was my first competition. (Of course, I'm not counting Ken Brown staying out over night after landing in an area far from a road and as I vaguely recall drinking alkali water. I was high above him at the time he landed.)

Let me also assure you that flex wing hang gliders are very different from paragliders and that there is no comparison regarding the number of deployments in competition between paragliders and hang gliders. No matter what you use for a denominator.

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mapjim
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #27   
dayhead wrote:
" Should we really fly wings that the only way of survival after a collapse is a reserve."

I know little of PG, but I get the feeling that this was a PG pilot commenting on the collapse recovery characteristics of high performance competition wings.

As I understand it, the DHV 1-2 type of PG has relatively good collapse recovery characteristics, while the really hot dog comp ones don't.

I've heard that some of these comp wings don't re-inflate after collapsing.


Ditto

A member of the BHPA executive is trying to get uncertified craft banned from competitions. Some of the very latest PG comp wings sound incredibly scary...collapse does imply deployment, and they sound barely at the edge of control. Apparently there's huge rivalry between PG manufacturers to constantly push the edge each year on top competition wings, which are uncertified when first flown in comps (and probably typically uncertifiable it sounds like). Commercial pressure to be able to advertise that your company has the best results in barely flyable wings each year.

I have to say, competitive pressure to push limits sounds inherently dicey in an already dangerous activity like free flight.

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spork
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #28   
davisstraub wrote:

As I have repeatedly said hang gliding and paragliding are dangerous sports, but they are not the same sports and not dangerous for the same reasons.


Perhaps not for the "same reasons", but they are dangerous in about the same numbers. The reason for your crash won't be of much consolation when you die.


Also interesting is the fact that this seems to be a fully approved PG thread. I guess there's no screaming about this forum being a haven for HG, where we can get away from the distractions of PG, because there's really no pro-PG message here.
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hgflyer
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #29   
spork wrote:
davisstraub wrote:

As I have repeatedly said hang gliding and paragliding are dangerous sports, but they are not the same sports and not dangerous for the same reasons.


Perhaps not for the "same reasons", but they are dangerous in about the same numbers. The reason for your crash won't be of much consolation when you die.


Also interesting is the fact that this seems to be a fully approved PG thread. I guess there's no screaming about this forum being a haven for HG, where we can get away from the distractions of PG, because there's really no pro-PG message here.


Another way to say it is...Get the F off your high arrogant horses! These humans have left loved ones behind! Or left them thinkin about who we are as airjunkies!

Het Gigh Fo Gar! This makes just as much sense as have fun fly safe! To a non-pilot.

My heart goes out to all who share the air! Now learn how to fly a hg safely?

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Skeeter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #30   
This is horrible news. My condolences go out to the two pilots and their families. And all the other people that have been affected by this tragedy.
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old newbie
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #31   
Thanks for changing the name of this thread.

I have thought for a while that paragliding was reaching a point of of evolving comp gliders to a point that it was not a viable mode of flying. It does not seem logical that we can achieve this amazing level of performance without a downside. The only choice is to shorten the lines(all the way) and add aluminum .

Paragliding is great fun and competition has helped evolve the modern paraglider now we need to be careful not to let performance(hard to resist) ruin the sport.

Steve Forslund
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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #32   
Quote:
Perhaps not for the "same reasons", but they are dangerous in about the same numbers.


There is a vast difference in the numbers dying in high level competitions. We don't expect to die when we go fly in the Worlds. I would suggest that the paraglider pilots are less sanguine about that possibility.

Seems like no flying today at the Worlds.

http://www.livetrack24.com/events/piedrahita2011

http://www.xcmag.com/2011/05/open-warfare-british-team-pilot-resigns/

Quote:
The move is a blow for the British Team, but the culmination of a journey for Mark that has seen him often a lone outspoken voice against the push for paraglider performance over pilot safety.


http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=40188&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=164

Quote:
"Francisco Vargas was flying slightly accelerated as he got a front collapse. The wingtips moved forward and locked with each other. The glider get into stable deep stall. Very near the ground the glider started to rotate ..."

"Eitel started final glide at very high altitude .He got a front collapse too, but slightly asymmetric. Immediately the glider went into fast rotation. He was twisted. Eye whitness told that both his hands was blocked by the twist, finally he was able to free one hand, but it was the wrong one to pull second chance. Maybe he lost consciousness.."

"... only few pilots told about turbulences. The conditions were not responsible for the accidents. All pilots agreed that conditions has been good flyable..."


Quote:
From the initial informal reports we are reading in Spanish from Mario Arque ( http://www.perfils.info/?page_id=449) it seems that the first pilot was too low to throw (he took a frontal collapse with less than 100mt, the wing went parachutal and when he was at 20mt over ground the glider rotated fast 180 degrees and impacted on the rocky ridge) - the second one , they believe was not able to throw due to a severe riser twist blocking his both hands). He was very high (1200mt over ground) when the accident happened.


http://www.xcmag.com/2011/07/paragliding-world-championships-2011-mads-leaves/

Quote:
The next but, for me at least, has to do with the 2-liners. I simply LOVE my wing, it is by far the finest wing I have ever flown – but it does seem that there are just that little bit more situations where these new 2-liner wings become unrecoverable.


http://www.xcmag.com/2011/07/paragliding-world-championships-2011-our-darkest-day/

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knumbknuts
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #33   
Is there anything being done by the organizers to try to do something to ensure the safety of the wings? I am thinking of the sprog measurements on the hang side.


I watched a biwingwal pilot take a 40 foot collapse and bounce like a rubber ball on top of Marshall. There is nothing he could have done to avoid it. I may learn to fly PGs at Torrey, where it's flyable for bags much more than bones, but I don't relish the thought of thermalling under one.
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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #34   
http://www.xcmag.com/2011/07/paragliding-world-championships-2011-statement-and-update/

Multiple deployments.

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AIRTHUG
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #35   
spork wrote:

Also interesting is the fact that this seems to be a fully approved PG thread. I guess there's no screaming about this forum being a haven for HG, where we can get away from the distractions of PG, because there's really no pro-PG message here.


Spork hits the nail on the head. As I learn to paraglide too, I am starting more and more to feel like a black guy in the deep South when I visit this forum...

KK just had a very constructive question/post... I like the direction this is going... but if things get too postive-PG, you can be sure certain forum members will be sure to shut it down right quick...

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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #36   
I would suggest that you listen to the voices of actual competition paraglider pilots and see what they are saying.

I say this as a former paraglider pilot who was flying one when Ryan was still in diapers. Smile

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #37   
I'd like to offer my condolences to the friends and families of our lost flying brothers, and offer the hope that their loss will force the organizers of these events to put an end to the flying of noncertified gliders.
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hghflyn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject: Vices! Reply with quote #38   
davisstraub wrote:
I would suggest that you listen to the vices of actual competition paraglider pilots and see what they are saying.

I say this as a former paraglider pilot who was flying one when Ryan was still in diapers. Smile


The only "Vices" a PG pilot has is Paragliding Crying or Very sad

The voice of a Comp PG pilot is in Mads Summation of continuing the Meet popcorn

"The next but, for me at least, has to do with the 2-liners. I simply LOVE my wing, it is by far the finest wing I have ever flown – but it does seem that there are just that little bit more situations where these new 2-liner wings become unrecoverable".

In a game where the odds are already stacked against us to an almost intolerable degree, that little bit extra, which may be simply down to extra top speed (although I think it is more than that), is more than what I, as a father of two little ones who seem to quite like daddy, am prepared to accept.

So I’m going home, regardless of the decision of the CIVL and the meet organisers later today. I still think they’ll call it off, but I won’t wait for them to do it.

I still love comp flying, I am stupid enough to still want to do it even on a 2-liner, and I simply don’t know what the next step for me is, but for me this event is over.

Mads S, signing out from Piedrahita. Crying or Very sad

Davis,do I have that Quote formatted correctly!? surrender
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #39   
davisstraub wrote:
....listen to the vices of actual competition paraglider pilots....
Ironically, your typo hits another nail on the head and that's the PG speedbar. I wouldn't call it a vice per se but according to many PG pilots I fly with, its use can cause some serious collapses. I wonder how many of the reported and unreported incidents during the world's were attributed to speedbar use?

My primary XC partner is a PG pilot and when we flew the Owens together a few weeks ago he later commented that he didn't dare even touch his speedbar during our flights. He flies an Axis Venus which is a more conservative PG than what's used in the comps.
davisstraub wrote:
....I say this as a former paraglider pilot who was flying one when Ryan was still in diapers. Smile

I didn't know you still flew PG? Twisted Evil Razz ROFL
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davisstraub
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #40   
Quote:
Davis,do I have that Quote formatted correctly!?


No, but more readable. Smile

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