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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
 #21 |
These are soaring aircraft... at least their supposed to be.
Flying a PG in perfectly smooth air tells you just about zero about its safety issues.
I might as well paddle a white water kayak in my swimming pool and proclaim ive seen the light 
Sorry.... but my memory of that pilot folding up on trashy air day and slamming into the ground 300 feet below... shattering bones, breaking pelvis, rupturing bladder., etc. carries a little more weight than flying a PG in smooth air. Whoopie.
All I know is... an HG would not have collapsed (mine didnt that day, and no one elses did either)... and JIM, an HG stall at 300 feet would have been trivial to recover from so dont try and equivocate.
Do we really need yet another PG thread started here? This is an HG forum. Getting sick of it. I already throw my mag out because of all the content I could care less about. Im gonna end up not visiting on my own HG website soon...arrrrghh....
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H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
Last edited by sg on Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
#22 |
Not trying to equivocate at all.
I was saying "stupid pilots doing stupid s***". You can see the stupid s*** your guys are doing. You have no frame of reference for the stupid s*** the PG guy is doing.
Your analogy holds well... if Ryan's a two minute expert for flying smooth air... then what ground are you standing on?
Jim |
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BBJCaptain
1 thumbs up
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 1142
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: |
#23 |
| jjcote wrote: |
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
| Try as I might (provided proper setup) anything short of 9g's is not going to make my Exxtacy"s wing collapse. |
That's good to know. Any idea how much it takes to make an Ultrasport fold up?
(Unfortunately, if that does happen, hang gliders don't reinflate.) |
Flight Design had one tested to failure by DHV (Gremany) and it broke
at over 9g's!! I'm not sure if WW tests to failure.
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First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
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Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"
Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php |
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Frontman
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 213
Location: Bay Area Cali
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
#24 |
Flying is a risky thing, period. So, we stack the cards as much as we can in our favor. I don't have anything against PG'ers but I think that there is an increased risk in that sport, which seems to be the industry accepted fact. Sure, we have heavy wings, need trucks to get to launch, etc., but, we have that added cushion of when the wind does the unpredictable, our flying machine doesn't give up the ghost.
_________________
Gary - H3 Wills Wing U2
My day jobs - Cellular and Alarm/Video Surveillance Systems |
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AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:39 pm Post subject: |
#25 |
| jjcote wrote: |
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
| Try as I might (provided proper setup) anything short of 9g's is not going to make my Exxtacy"s wing collapse. |
That's good to know. Any idea how much it takes to make an Ultrasport fold up?
(Unfortunately, if that does happen, hang gliders don't reinflate.) |
Dude, you unwittingly tried to loop your UltraSport... and didn't make it... G's required for failure are irrelevant when you flip the glider upside down and FALL on it 
BBJ- you're not invincible in that rigid... talk to Davis, or read the other thread we had going on...
| sg wrote: |
| Sorry.... but my memory of that pilot folding up on trashy air day and slamming into the ground 300 feet below... shattering bones, breaking pelvis, rupturing bladder., etc. carries a little more weight than flying a PG in smooth air. Whoopie. |
And this is an excellent point, and the reason I think doing both is ideal... these are two different aircraft. That means different safe-operating conditions (see example above, obviously one-craft was outside safe operating conditions, while the other was not). On the flip side, you 'aint hiking your hang glider to the top of the North Side on a light wind day...
Each have their pro's and con's... I'm not saying anyone should learn to paraglide if they don't want to... just saying if you know nothing about them, realize YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEM.
*****************************************
Again, not trying to push paragliding, just trying to SHARE KNOWLEDGE WITH OTHER HANG GLIDER PILOTS (isn't that the purpose of this site)...
Some of ya'll have been, or continue to be, idiotic. In the past, so have I. Sorry. Now you know...
_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG |
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spork
1 thumbs up
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 2242
Location: S.F. Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
#26 |
| SeeMarkFly wrote: |
| Sell paragliding elsewhere, this is a hang glider site. |
The thread title is "Paragliding Collapses". Apparently you thought it was a good topic when you clicked on it. You must have thought you were going to see some good self-confirming PG carnage. But when you learned it was about PG's not being so bad, you got all offended. Even now you can use the special forum feature known as "not clicking on the topic" if you don't care for it. Seriously - try it. |
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spork
1 thumbs up
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 2242
Location: S.F. Bay Area
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: |
#27 |
| Frontman wrote: |
| I don't have anything against PG'ers but I think that there is an increased risk in that sport |
The numbers would suggest otherwise. At least the fatality rate is nearly identical between HG and PG.
[quote...]which seems to be the industry accepted fact.[/quote]
Really? Do you have any evidence at all of that? |
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Bondy
3 thumbs up
Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 424
Location: Perth WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
#28 |
| Frontman wrote: |
Sure, we have heavy wings, need trucks to get to launch, etc., but, we have that added cushion of when the wind does the unpredictable, our flying machine doesn't give up the ghost.
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Don't forget it also takes takes two people to rig up. 
Was a slightly miss leading thread title.
I won't beat around the bush, Ryan, will you be planning on becoming a PG instructor and selling PG gear?
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You only live twice
Sonic 190, Sting 154, Combat 2 14, Explorer, Mosquito NRG and a Falcon 3 195 |
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SeeMarkFly
2 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 1681
Location: Lakeview Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
#29 |
| spork wrote: |
| Apparently you thought it was a good topic when you clicked on it. |
Boy, you sure go out of your way looking for fights.
I saw pure Madison avenue cr@p spouting the fun of paragliding.
No real specific flights, just opinions about stuff like "safety".
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| I have to say- I think I (and many HG pilots) have GROSSLY misjudged the whole 'collapse' thing. |
After FOUR days of lessons Ryan can NOW tell ALL the hang glider pilots how mistaken they were?????
And just when you think you know what's going on, he tells you "that's not what's going on".
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| Not trying to sell anyone on paragliding.... it's not for everyone.... |
Pssss.........he's selling PAARAGLIDING!!!!
And telling you about the "wimps" that didn't take up this new and exciting sport.
These are ALL sales techniques, not real life testimonials.
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| Alright... flame away! |
And then he invited me.
AFTER that, I enjoyed all the labeling of anybody that might not SHARE that particular opinion.
| jimrooney wrote: |
| now you get to see fully the wilful bias and ignorance of many hang pilots. What can I say?... "Haters gonna hate" is the best I can come up with. |
Folks, we got bias, hate and stupid.....
RIGHT HERE in River City!
And then I get told the "rules" I get to use.
| jimrooney wrote: |
| but the "This is a HG forum" thing doesn't apply here. |
Sorry but this whole thread strike me as verbal herding,
so I countered with MY real life experience testimonial.
Nothing like real life experiences for a really real life!
I had sooooo many people telling ME what my opinion was
| spork wrote: |
| you got all offended |
I wonder if I will ever get to have my own opinion.
I found this thread mildly amusing but...
Ryan is selling "something",
And Jim is (apparently) helping him.
You don't see that?
_________________
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)
KG6HOT
complacency about complacency is probably the enemy. |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
#30 |
No my friend, I am countering all the BS here.
Ya'll are accusing Ryan of bias due to selling gear...
I've got nothing to sell any of you.
So I'm piping up, cuz ya'll can't hide behind that one with me.
Ya'll are knocking his opinions because he's a PG newbie.
And while he knows little about PG... he now has first hand experience... which you sorely lack. If you want to pull the "newbie" card on him, make sure you're not the bigger newbie.
Which, as it happens, I'm not.
I think Spork nailed it.
Ya'll came looking for some PG bashing and were disappointed to learn that this thread was from the dissenting opinion.
Hahaha.. and yeah... you knew this would be a  when you read the title (anything with PG in the title will be), yet you still clicked. Oh how it smarts when you're not the one telling people to just not click topics they're not going to like.
Jim |
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CHassan
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Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 4593
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
#31 |
| jimrooney wrote: |
The difference?
You know the craft, so you recognise the stupid s*** they're doing. It's pretty obvious (to you).
PG boy up there's flying like ass... but you can't see it, cuz you don't know what, why or how he's doing retarded s***. I can... but you can't. Big difference.
Ahhhh... youtube
Jim |
I'm not knocking PG, just trying to understand.....
I have run with a paraglider behind me. (I then got drug across the ground with the paraglider behind me, but that is another story.
In the video it looked like he simply got to steep with not enough tension on the lines. (poorly executed maneuver) The right side lost enough tension that the wing was able to fold over. Is that about right?
Is there a way to quickly fix that if it does happen?
In a HG if you are gooning and go to steep an slow you slip down the tip and pile in with possibly the same results this chap got. (pain!)
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Airborne Climax 14 (C1)
WW U2
H3
AT, FL,ST, RLF, TUR.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. … Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties. ~~~Douglas Adams |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:50 am Post subject: |
#32 |
CHassan... Yup. Pretty accurate.
He went way too big, way too slow and didn't brake his outside tip at all. Classic newbie wingover fail, except he was doing this low to the ground. That dive at the end was the glider recovering... except the ground got in the way.
And yeah, newbies do the same sorts of s*** in HG with similar outcomes. If you saw a HG newbie stalling his way through wingovers low and he spun in, you wouldn't think twice about it.... you'd think "Jeasus man... what the hell were you thinking?"... kinda my reaction to this guy.
Jim |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:54 am Post subject: |
#33 |
| jimrooney wrote: |
Not trying to equivocate at all.
I was saying "stupid pilots doing stupid s***". You can see the stupid s*** your guys are doing. You have no frame of reference for the stupid s*** the PG guy is doing.
Your analogy holds well... if Ryan's a two minute expert for flying smooth air... then what ground are you standing on?
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Strawman fallacy AND poisoning the well fallacy. I didnt say anything about Ryans time. My point was, PG's have issues in turbulence. Ryan drawing any conclusion is glass smooth air tells us ZERO.
Secondly, you dont need to be a pilot AT ALL, to read ushpas stats and see that collapses are their highest accident cause. So a 0 minute expert is fully qualified to read those stats. (Im a 2 or so hour expert LOL)
Ive said in the past, that I DO NOT have issues with PG's flying in smooth ridge soaring conditions. Risk of collapse is low enough IMO. It just bored me to death. The only reason I find HG fun in ridge soaring is because of the super man style slope skimming you can do on one.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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charliep
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 14
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: |
#34 |
I have a ushpa hang0 rating and not even that for paragliders so forgive my ignorance....
Is there any correlation between the type of paraglider wing and the accident rate from collapses close to the ground? For instance is a DHV1 pg statistically any safer than a DHV3 pg or do they all fall out of the sky at about the same rate? |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
#35 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| sg wrote: |
| Sorry.... but my memory of that pilot folding up on trashy air day and slamming into the ground 300 feet below... shattering bones, breaking pelvis, rupturing bladder., etc. carries a little more weight than flying a PG in smooth air. Whoopie. |
And this is an excellent point, and the reason I think doing both is ideal... these are two different aircraft. That means different safe-operating conditions (see example above, obviously one-craft was outside safe operating conditions, while the other was not). On the flip side, you 'aint hiking your hang glider to the top of the North Side on a light wind day... |
Exactly right... and you will get no argument from me about flying a PG in baby butt smooth conditions. But thats not what PG pilots argue is it?
| Quote: |
| Each have their pro's and con's... I'm not saying anyone should learn to paraglide if they don't want to... just saying if you know nothing about them, realize YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEM. |
I think I have more PG time than you at this point  Neener neener. Ive flown them briefly, ive seen a collapse bring someone to within an inch of their life, eve seen the ushpa stats, I think I know plenty.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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jjcote
3 thumbs up
Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 3216
Location: Lunenburg, MA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
#36 |
| AIRTHUG wrote: |
| jjcote wrote: |
| BBJCaptain wrote: |
| Try as I might (provided proper setup) anything short of 9g's is not going to make my Exxtacy"s wing collapse. |
That's good to know. Any idea how much it takes to make an Ultrasport fold up?
(Unfortunately, if that does happen, hang gliders don't reinflate.) |
Dude, you unwittingly tried to loop your UltraSport... and didn't make it... G's required for failure are irrelevant when you flip the glider upside down and FALL on it :crazy |
Right. And positive gs isn't what makes a paraglider collapse, either. For all I know, a paraglider may be good for 9 g.
(This may be open to misinterpretation, so just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you on anything here, Ryan.)
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H4 + various skills (only foot-launch so far)
WW UltraSport 147, WW Falcon2 170, PacAir Vision Mark IV 17
My HG wiki profile and my flying blog |
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sg
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
#37 |
VOTED TO BURY.... im sick of PG talk on this site these days.
More HG talk please.... dont know why people want to start PG threads.
Take it to the PG forum.
_________________
H4, AT, FL, TFL, AWCL, CL, FSL, RLF, TUR, X-C
Aeros Stealth III 142
| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: |
#38 |
Yup, negative AOA causes PGs to collapse.
In positive, they're way stronger than HG... you'll pass out before you break mine. |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: |
#39 |
SG... so is this where I get to invoke the oft used "don't click on it" argument that I get thrown at me when I'm commenting on the thread that I don't like?
Jim |
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jimrooney
3 thumbs up
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1713
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
#40 |
Normally I'd agree with you btw.... but this is a thread speaking directly to HG pilots. They're not on the PG forum. This is exactly where this should be.
I'm sorry you don't personally like it... but that's what you're arguing here... your personal taste.
Jim |
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