choochoonooga incident. - Hang Gliding Org - Worlds largest Hang Gliding community, discover Hang Gliding

Search

  • Sorry...You must register to activate searching









Post new topic   Reply to topic    Hang Gliding Org Forum Index -> Hang gliding Videos->choochoonooga incident.
BURY this topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
hgnv
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 388
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #61   
My condolences to his familly. Sad
I will certainly raise a class in Tim's memory...

_________________
"Nobody Plans to Fail.... Many just Fail to Plan"

Airborne Sting II xc
H-3 FL, FSL, CL, AT
Send private message  Rate this post
hgflyer
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 3425

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #62   
I am always saddened to hear of someone who is pursuing their passion and dreams, ending up hurt or worse. Crying or Very sad I don't know Tim personally, but I do know the like heart that beats with Joy, happiness, challenge, accomplishment, peace and serenity.

My heart goes out to all of Tims' loved ones and friends. So maybe they could have an understanding, peace and a lifetime connection with Tim.

To Tim...May your Heart always Dive UP!
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
bsquare
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 383
Location: Memphis, TN

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #63   
Sky_Walker wrote:
I'm afraid that this exposes a weakness in some of our training programs. I know as a hang 2 pilot that I didn't receive really any significant training about how to handle a landing in any kind of adverse conditions like a gust front ...

How do we do a better job getting this kind of tribal knowledge out to newer pilots ???


- this is not a weakness in anybodys training program. None of us are capable of landing in 60 mph turbulent winds.

_________________
H3, AT, FL, CL, AWCL, 360 -- Student Pilot
WillsWing Eagle 164
WillsWing U2 145
WillsWing T2C 144
Send private message  Rate this post
torombolo



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #64   
My condolences to his family and friends.
_________________
Soo I'm a pilot wannabe, so, so...
-H1
Send private message  Rate this post
fly,surf,&ski
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 1093
Location: Torrey Pines

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #65   
Sky_Walker wrote:


I watched the last glider to land at Lookout in the gust front and it was a terribly scary thing to watch. I overheard some of the more experienced pilots saying during his approach that he was making a big mistake setting up for a standard DBF approach. I'm pretty sure I would have been likely to make the same mistake.



I'm not so sure I agree with that. Although I would start my approach a little higher knowing that I was going to turn some what higher on final so I would have plenty of time to get the wings level before reaching the ground, and knowing that there is no real threat of overshooting.
(I would make sure not to go past the edge of the field before I turned on base though)

OK my reasoning:
A DBF approach consists of turns at or less than 90 degrees. These turns require less bank angle than either the s turn or the figure 8 approach does. IMO between the lower bank angles and smaller turns there is LESS CHANCE OF GETTING TURNED AWAY FROM THE LZ by the turbulence that will almost always be associated with a very high wind landing.



Just my opinion and RIP Tim.

_________________
Help preserve Hang Gliding at Torrey Pines
Join the Torrey Hawks (its free)


Last edited by fly,surf,&ski on Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Send private message  Rate this post
johnpeace
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 644
Location: NE Georgia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #66   
bsquare wrote:
Sky_Walker wrote:
I'm afraid that this exposes a weakness in some of our training programs. I know as a hang 2 pilot that I didn't receive really any significant training about how to handle a landing in any kind of adverse conditions like a gust front ...

How do we do a better job getting this kind of tribal knowledge out to newer pilots ???


- this is not a weakness in anybodys training program. None of us are capable of landing in 60 mph turbulent winds.


That might be a bit of an overstatement. We are all capable of making decisions that put us in a stronger position than other decisions to deal with very adverse conditions. Maybe not strong enough that we avoid injury altogether...but perhaps strong enough that we get hurt or damage a glider instead of getting killed. Unfortunately, most of the sites we fly in this part of the country aren't really good for these kinds of conditions (rolling hills, ridges, treelines turn strong wind into strong mechanical turbulence near the ground).

There are better and worse ways to deal with this kind of situation.

The best way to deal with it is to avoid it altogether by getting back on the ground before it becomes an issue. I understand it was hazy that day, making it difficult to spot the maturing CB cloud until it was too late....that's certainly an aggravating circumstance.

Very tragic news and just awful. RIP Tim.

_________________
H4 :: FL FSL CL AWCL TURB RLF XC
WW Talon 140
Member of the World's Greatest HG Club!
Send private message  Rate this post
peanuts
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 1880
Location: virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #67   
i know they mess with my ability to read digital instruments, but how many wear "polarized"/blublocker/similar sunglasses? they help me see clouds thru the haze
Send private message  Rate this post
Kreebog
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Chattanooga, TN

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #68   
I was also a friend of Tim's and we flew together many times over the last couple of years, including at last year's Team Challenge where he ran away with the comp! He was one of the nicest guys I knew, always fun to be around, and always smiling even when his 3.5 hour drive down from Owensboro did not result in any airtime. I'm always kinda pissed off and grumpy if I go somewhere to fly then spend the day grounded, but Tim seemed to enjoy the company of other pilots as much as he enjoyed flying itself. Even so, I don't think I've ever met anyone who loved hang gliding more than Tim did. It saddens me tremendously to know that I will never be happily surprised to see him, share a beer with him, or fly with him again. My heart goes out to his family for their loss.

I was one of the three other pilots who flew at Henson's Gap that day.... as Barry said - conditions were not questionable when he (we) launched, and we had checked the weather and the local forecast and scanned the sky for signs of trouble (and lift) as I'm sure they also did out at LMFP where LOTS of pilots were in the air. Barry called to warn them, 30 miles away, after we were hit and he realized how powerful the storm was... they scrambled to get everybody out of the air before it reached them.

I saw Tim fighting the gust-front in his Sport 2 and it was, by far and away, the most horrible and terrifying thing that I have ever witnessed. I watched the whole thing and wish I could get it out of my head now... instead I have been thinking a LOT about it and trying to figure out Tim's thought process and how he, who had roughly the same training, knowledge, and experience that I do, and who was not prone to panic or foolish decision making (meaning he was wiser than I am), could have come to decide that flying toward the storm was his best option. I have a few ideas and I'll write them down and share them with everyone else as soon as I think I can be objective about it. I know that Tim would want us to learn whatever we can from this, but right now it's still to hard for me to think about it clearly.

I have heard that there is going to be a gathering (a potluck, possibly) in the Chattanooga area on the 26th of June. I don't think the date is set in stone yet, but if you can attend please block that day out on your calendar now. If it changes or if I hear more I'll make sure it's posted here somewhere.

------------------------------
James Dean
WWS2 - H3 - KJ4RPB
Chattanooga, TN.
Send private message  Rate this post
Skyhighwoman
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 2185
Location: Bay Area

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #69   
James

Thanks for sharing! Crying or Very sad

Tough one guys!! Take it easy and make sure u talk it out.



BIG HUGS!!


Carm

_________________
H4 (started 1987) - DHP
flying: U2160, Falcon 2 195, Litesport

http://www.youtube.com/skyhighwoman

Look not just with your eyes but also your brain. There's a whole new world.
Send private message  Rate this post
backpacker2
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 08 Jun 2011
Posts: 1
Location: owensboro,ky

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #70   
I do not hang glide but would like to thank everyone who is posting about Tim. I am a co-worker and friend of his and we are all sad by this tragedy because he was a great person . Thank you for posting because it is helping some of us to put some pieces together to try to understand.

keep smiling
Send private message  Rating: 3 thumbs up
PilotGuy
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 1920
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #71   
I'm slow to respond to these threads bearing bad news, I guess I just often feel like there's nothing I can say that would make any difference. It always saddens me to hear of a fellow flier lost, and this case in particular. Although I never met our late friend, he was apparently well known and well liked at my former stomping grounds, LMFP and Hensons, and I know that if the community there liked him then I would have as well.

When I read about him flying at the Team Challenge it reminded me of the awesome time I had the one and only year I flew there, back in 2008, and again I draw the conclusion, by association, that I know I would have liked Tim. My condolences to those closest to him, I know that the weight is heaviest on you.

JB
Mojave, CA
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
AIRTHUG
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 6159
Location: Point of the Mountain, Draper, UT

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #72   
johnpeace wrote:

The best way to deal with it is to avoid it altogether by getting back on the ground before it becomes an issue. I understand it was hazy that day, making it difficult to spot the maturing CB cloud until it was too late...
Particularly on the East Coast, HAZE is usually visible water moisture in the air... so not being able to see far is a sign in itself that there's a lot of moisture on that day...

Hindsight is always 20-20... I'm not saying I wouldn't have flown too... just trying to continue education so this doesn't happen to others, myself included.

If you live in LA, disregard... your haze is just all that marijuana smoke...

_________________
Ryan Voight
BLOG: www.AIRTHUG.com
VIDEOS: http://vimeo.com/AIRTHUG
Send private message  Rate this post
Phoenix
2 thumbs up
2 thumbs up


Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 1414
Location: USA Reg 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #73   
Previous post very rude, I am very sorry. But much bad news, right now.
Please tell us more about this good man.


Last edited by Phoenix on Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
Kreebog
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Chattanooga, TN

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #74   
AIRTHUG wrote:
Particularly on the East Coast, HAZE is usually visible water moisture in the air... so not being able to see far is a sign in itself that there's a lot of moisture on that day...


Yes Ryan, thanks for adding that. It's another lesson that I am taking away from this. The haze was annoying and reduced visibility (as johnpeace pointed out), but I didn't think of it as an indicator of a higher potential for OD until after the accident when I started trying to figure out what went wrong.

The reduction in visibility was almost certainly a contributing factor - even from launch height we could not really appreciate the size of the storm until we checked the weather radar after seeing the massive cu-nim building above the haze... and that was just the edge of the storm.

It still hurts, but it's getting easier to talk about - thanks to everyone for being a part of such an amazing and supportive community.

_________________
James Dean
WWU2 - H3 - KJ4RPB
Send private message  Rate this post
blindrodie
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 3752
Location: Roeland Park, KS

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #75   
I'm surprised that more of us are not using smart phone technology prior to launching.

I ALWAYS check the local radar and then do my own calculations on the conditions
along with talking to locals about weather habits under the current circumstances.

Careful out there! Cool

_________________
"Tow me up. I'll find my way down"

Kansas City Hang Glider Supplies
Guggenmos E7
WW U2 145
WW F1 195
FlyTec 6015
CG 1000
Tracer Plus
Organ Donor
Torrey Hawk #212
Send private message  Rate this post
shsims
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 23
Location: Atlanta

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #76   
I just flew with Tim the weekend before this. I only knew him through flying, but it was obvious he was a good guy all the way through and he'll be truly missed. His family has my sympathy for their loss.

Tim was ahead of me on the learning curve and I'd look to him and think, 'that's where I want to be next year.' It seemed like he took things seriously and did it right. That's part of the reason why I'm sitting here wondering how close I came and how to not find myself there again, because I was the last one to land at Lookout. I want to share what I experienced anyway because hopefully it will help on some level. This isn't to say that my flight or thought process correlated at all with Tim's and shouldn't be used in that way...I'm sure he faced much more severe conditions than I did. The storm wasn't close enough to be visible to me at all.

I launched around 3:30 pm and after an hour or so of staying near launch I decided to get away from traffic and worked my way SW down the ridge. This was my initial mistake. There was discussion earlier on launch about the risk of over-development, and although the forecasts only showed slight chance, the haziness amplified the risk. Not having first-hand experience with storms, I should not have separated myself so much from the other pilots. I did keep my eyes on Speckman as best I could. I was 2 miles down the ridge next to Cloudland Canyon by the time I saw him on glide toward the LZ. It was about this time that I noticed the lift seemed to be getting more widespread. I thought it might be a wonder-wind coming on and Speckman might be bailing because it was not challenging anymore. The wind forecast had shown a notable peak starting around 6 pm with a gust factor on top of that for just an hour and mellowing out afterwards. Up to a certain point, it seemed like conditions were tracking along as predicted. There was also talk of how it had been soarable all week and pilots were probably not going to be doing any long flights. For whatever reason, that stuck in my head as an innocuous reason why there weren't too many gliders still in the sky. I hadn't picked up on anything that seemed like a threat, but started working my way back up the ridge anyway just to probe around.

I could tell that conditions were changing, but I was still in the mode of observing and exploring rather than recognizing the threat. Around 5:30 pm I flew out toward the LZ and found the air still buoyant and mild. I was suspicious by now that there could be something I didn't know about but didn't want to give up the airtime yet. I turned back toward the ridge and flew over launch. There were several people out on the ramp, but I might have been too high to hear anything. I left the ridge and probed into the valley toward the LZ again. I hit some pretty strong lift and turned in it several times and here's where things changed in my mind.

I noticed my ground track was fast and more to the South. In what seemed like just a moment, I was back further down the ridge than I wanted to be. I saw a leaf at 3000 ft and thought that shouldn't happen this time of year. Now I thought this could be a storm somewhere beyond the haze. It was about 5:45 pm and I pulled in and headed for the LZ. I was only making a few mph over the ground and the air was getting rough and I was loosing efficiency with all the corrections. I considered fading back to the ridge and just trying to stay high, but I was already tired and getting more so and didn't know if this was going to be subsiding or getting worse. I just wanted to be on the ground by now.

Still almost a mile out from the LZ, I could see from perspective shift that I could probably make it at this rate, but I also saw that there were people in Ned's field, which was about 1/3 mile closer and less shrouded by foothills, so I started tracking sideways to get over there.

I arrived over Ned's field with around 500 ft AGL, and it took around 5 minutes to get down. I did a few diving turns over the field trying to loose altitude but it was difficult to execute them from getting thrown around so much. I actually gained altitude on some of them even though I was stuffing the bar as much as I could manage and trying to keep my pod spread open for drag. I initially tried to stay over the upwind end of the field, thinking I'd have no problem moving downwind when I needed to and that if the lift I was experiencing was due to any latent thermal lift, it would be stronger at the downwind end. But then I was getting waved downwind by guys on the ground...what I was doing obviously wasn't working and I was getting pretty worn out, so I did another turn and let it drift me further back. It seemed to be better further back and I was loosing altitude. I was definitely more concerned with loosing altitude than setting up a certain landing approach. Not wanting to hit anymore lift and overshoot into the power lines or trees, I pulled one more 360, which was uncomfortably low given the violent air. I stayed fighting it pulled in on the basetube all the way down. The wind gradient felt like I just fell through a vacuum the last 10 feet or so and was just able to push out in time to roll in. Fortunately the field was recently mown. It was 6:00 pm and I was glad to be on the ground.

Now I don't know if it was picking up or letting off on the ground when I came in. I only know for sure what it was doing in my airspace as I moved through it, but it was getting progressively worse all the way through. I realize this may be just because I was descending through worsening mechanical turbulence.

Ollie did tell me I would have been better off with S-turns instead of turning my back to the wind. I can't disagree...I just stuck with what I was comfortable with and what I thought would get me down quicker. In hindsight, it was blowing hard enough that I could have just angled away from the wind 45 degrees, sweeping back and forth as necessary to drop back instead (maybe that's what Ollie meant anyway...not really completing a full S turn but doing the same basic pattern). I could have also taken an extra minute to try to relax and find the best air over the field to descend through but I didn't think of that because I was impatient and wanted to get on the ground ASAP since I didn't have much strength left...sort of a self-reinforcing cycle.

I was shaken and don't recall everyone that was there, but a bunch of people came by the field to check on me. I appreciate that, the advice I got afterwards, and thank you to those of you that helped manage my glider too.

All that finally said, here's what I'm going to do next time:
* Stay closer to experienced pilots
* Have my radio with me
* Have my smart phone on a tether where I can get to it with the local radar already loaded
* Practice S-turns whenever the opportunity presents itself
* Learn how to better assess where that point is when I should just stay up and wait it out


Godspeed, Tim. I won't take to the sky without you in my thoughts.

_________________
H-3, AT FL AWCL CL FSL TUR
Send private message  Rating: 3 thumbs up
NMERider
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7364

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: In Tim's Honor Reply with quote #77   
Tuesday's aerial wake in Tim's honor. 4hrs, 34,000', 39 miles of laps. I didn't have to know him personally. Over the past 14 months or so I have done a half dozen XC flights in honor of recently fallen pilots who I knew personally including one who I helped bury. I need a better reason to fly hard and long.


Media BLOCKED

Please REGISTER
and log in to see this content
Send private message Blog  Rate this post
Kreebog
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Chattanooga, TN

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #78   
Thanks for sharing the story, shsims. It sounds pretty scary... I'm glad you were able to take away so many good ideas to avoid the situation in the future.

That looks like a great flight, NMERider Smile

_________________
James Dean
WWU2 - H3 - KJ4RPB
Send private message  Rate this post
Willmrx
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 1602
Location: Northern Cal

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #79   
My thoughts and prayers go out to his friends and family.

Will

_________________
Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself -- and I will obey every law or submit to the penalty.---- Chief Joseph, Washington, D.C. 1879
Send private message  Rate this post
jackiewaza
3 thumbs up
3 thumbs up


Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 2
Location: SouthEast

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Tim Martin Accident Reply with quote #80   
I'm Steve Sutton Tims brother in law.

As most of you know Tim had an accident 6/5/11. Tim past on 6/7/2011 at 3:18 A.M. Two of Tims life long friends were witness, as well as club member witness,and have stated that Tim did everything right. From their statements this is what happen. Weather was good, some haze. Tim launched and as soon as he launched it appears he caught a thermal and climbs at a fast rate. They watch Tim climbs and start down the valley to south. They lost site of him as he climbs higher into the haze and moved South. According to his friends watching and others at Treetoppers Tim had been in the air for 2.5 hrs soaring up and down the valley. According to witnesses a freak storm came from the northern part of the valley moving south down the valley. His friends on top of the mountain at the launch platform estimate a gust front with winds at 60 to 70 mph others have guessed 45 to 60moved in. As Tim was returning to the LZ the storm approached he was caught in the wind and was short of the LZ. He turn with the wind and was trying for a field. As he was clearing the tree line, 20 to 30 feet above the tree tops, there was some strong buffeting as he cleared the tree line either the gust front or a microburst caught him and he dropped straight down. He slammed into the ground.One of the witness at the site after seeing the crash called tim on his cellphone stating that they were on their way down to the valley to find him and to hang in there. Unfortunately Tim was unable to responed. The message was found by his wife at the hospital when his friends gave her the phone. It took anywhere from 25 to 40 minutes to find him.

This is the info from his friends and witnesses. Not only was Tim my Brother in Law he was my friend. he will always be loved and remember. Tim loved this sport and the friends he made in it. I wish you all long safe flights and smooth landing. As Tim would say to me I say to you...Live Strong!!

Steve Sutton
Wingman0160@yahoo.com
Send private message  Rating: 3 thumbs up
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Hang Gliding Org Forum Index -> Hang gliding Videos
 
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5


 
Jump to:  


(c) HangGliding.org All rights reserved. Based on PhpBB