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jimrooney
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #41   
Ah, the good ole SS/DS first glider question. A classic.
This one gets asked almost as much as "how long does it take to learn".

I won't give my "comprehensive" answer to this... lots of people have covered this well already.

Here's a way I think about it.... if it were your glider... would you lend it to them?
Look at how different these gliders look from this perspective.

Someone's looking to borrow your glider for a lesson.
If you have a Sport 2?
If you have a Falcon?

Big difference. You might be happy to lend out either, but you're definitely going to be thinking a tad more before lending out a Sport2.

This is something I loved about my Target. I could lend that puppy out to anyone with a rating. Didn't have to ask how current they were. Didn't have to ask what they flew. Nothing. They were a HG pilot... sure thing.

The Sport 2?
Not a raft of questions... but not everyone. Not like the Target.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #42   
In the UK, it's quite common for new pilots to get low-end intermediates (Stings, Rios, Sport 2's), in part because of the wind speeds here, but mostly because at lower wind speeds the air is frightening full of paragliders (like, ridiculously), and thus most HG pilots are only willing to fly in winds that are strong enough that most PG pilots stop flying (and that's pretty strong nowadays...I see a few PGs in 20mph wind sometimes). Elsewhere, people get SS's.
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CAL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #43   
jimrooney wrote:
Ah, the good ole SS/DS first glider question. A classic.
This one gets asked almost as much as "how long does it take to learn".

I won't give my "comprehensive" answer to this... lots of people have covered this well already.

Here's a way I think about it.... if it were your glider... would you lend it to them?
Look at how different these gliders look from this perspective.

Someone's looking to borrow your glider for a lesson.
If you have a Sport 2?
If you have a Falcon?

Big difference. You might be happy to lend out either, but you're definitely going to be thinking a tad more before lending out a Sport2.

This is something I loved about my Target. I could lend that puppy out to anyone with a rating. Didn't have to ask how current they were. Didn't have to ask what they flew. Nothing. They were a HG pilot... sure thing.

The Sport 2?
Not a raft of questions... but not everyone. Not like the Target.

Jim



Jim comes up with the answer of the years Laughing love it


my progression after flying from 76-81 and coming back to the sport in 2008 started on a sport 2 , then ended up on a U2 2 years later,

i love the U2 so much i sold the Sport 2, i think handling wise they are close so if i would have started out on a falcon then went to a u2 i would not have sold the falcon, because they complement each other so well, as someone else has stated another club in the bag, you would not use the driver to putt or the putter to drive, but you could get a way with using a 9 iron instead of pitching wedge, that is how i would put the difference between the sport 2 and U2,

the u2 and a falcon you have a putter and driver, great combo ! you can't go wrong with a falcon, you will always want one for that light day or a day when you need to quickly set up, fly, quickly break down and head to work or other engagements you need to get to.

some of the best pilots fly Falcons and love them

P.S. i would lend A Falcon but there is no way you will fly my Sport 2 Laughing

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Bondy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #44   
Jim always comes up with the goods, respect thumbsup .
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ChattaroyMan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #45   
All this has got me a thinkin' - Oh oh! Shocked .....

What if say, WW, had a 2 for 1 deal? --- Buy any Sport 2, U2, T2C and get a Falcon! The price would have to be more than a single DS glider alone but attractive enough to make some pilots take the bait. If the Falcon wasn't for the purchaser of the DS ship the deal could be gone into by a newbee and their mentor. If I had the bucks to buy new I'd surely consider such a deal.

From what CAL said .... thumbsup
Quote:
the u2 and a falcon you have a putter and driver, great combo ! you can't go wrong with a falcon, you will always want one for that light day or a day when you need to quickly set up, fly, quickly break down and head to work or other engagements you need to get to.


Yeah! Left work @ 3 PM, drove 60 miles to Steptoe Butte, launched by 4:30 and landed @ sunset (5 PM in early Nov. at our latitude). I doubt if I'd have even headed out with a glider that took longer to set up.

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steve prater
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Is it dumb for me to get an intermediate HG as my first? Reply with quote #46   
jax_realm wrote:
I realize I am assuming slightly more risks by not buying a beginner glider first, but after my HG training, What do you think?


After your training! Dude.. Really? You do not yet know if you can do this. Spend your money on training only at first. Your instructor should be providing the equipment you need to get to H2. Get to that point before spending for anything other than training. We all have seen so many like you buy gear only to find that this is not for them then are stuck with equipment not longer worth what you paid for it.

Get training then join us in the sky.


On second thought buy a new small T2. If and when you quit I will take it off you hands for ohhhh .50c on the dollar .
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Wonder Boy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Is it dumb for me to get an intermediate HG as my first? Reply with quote #47   
jax_realm wrote:
I realize I am assuming slightly more risks by not buying a beginner glider first, but after my HG training, I'd prefer to get a glider that I really like. (my research leads me to think my ideal glider would be an intermediate one, it would also save money by eliminating the need to upgrade)

I believe I'm a quick learner, and I'm hoping HG training on a beginning rental might be enough for me on the beginner glider....

What do you think?


Get your training going.... that will tell you and your instructor your level and potential. The instructor should have a DS you you to try if he feels you are up to it.
Then you can decide.....

Stories of what others went though in their progression should only be used as a reference of what happened for them.
No harm in waiting. We all learn at different speeds.
Mike

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #48   
Learn on your club/instructor glider till you really could fill difference and decide where or not you need SS/DS, lower level or higher level intermediate, maybe some particular, do you want additional SS floater to own or not where your interests in hang gliding are.
Much depends on local traditions - here (Russia) loads of pilots try to progress to "сombats" as quick as possible on club's gliders. Some in few months. Mainly due to fact that hang gliding was considered primary as sport not as fun Evil or Very Mad. Many scary themselves out of hang gliding, some injured. Be safe, think.
I got a used C4 right after first flights crazy (guy needed money, and I want to help him Rolling Eyes ), so It lays in the basement a bit more than a year already, will be there a year or two more, I guess, hope it will be ok.
So, general advise - do not buy till you able try it and then say - "I really want same but maybe with another colors" Smile.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #49   
mapjim wrote:
In the UK, it's quite common for new pilots to get low-end intermediates (Stings, Rios, Sport 2's), in part because of the wind speeds here, but mostly because at lower wind speeds the air is frightening full of paragliders (like, ridiculously), and thus most HG pilots are only willing to fly in winds that are strong enough that most PG pilots stop flying (and that's pretty strong nowadays...I see a few PGs in 20mph wind sometimes). Elsewhere, people get SS's.


The best wind speed I like flying my SS Malibu is in 20knots/23mph. I enjoy riding the elevator up and down and not having to worry about scratching for lift.

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fly,surf,&ski
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #50   
Jason wrote:
Alan wrote:
I wonder why this question comes up so often. Is there really such a stigma associated with flying a SS wing in some circles? A lot of newbies end up reacting to it as if the rest of us treat it as if it were showing up with pink bunny-wunny training wheels on the bike at the speedway.


I thinik its just human nature, you see the same thing in all sorts of places- particularly motorcycles

Someone goes out and might take the safety class on a 125cc bike, then goes out and buys a 1000cc supersport that does 0-140 in 10 seconds, and never really learns to ride the thing and gets thrown off, injuring themself and doing $$$$$ in damage......the idea being they want to save money by not buying that good learner bike.....

instead they throw that money away and more buying something thats too much for them in......and then to top it all off....they get smoked by someone with a bike 15 years inferior



Ditto

Since I work at a motorcycle dealership I have seen the people Jason's talking about. Some times they almost crash the bike before they're even out of eye shot of the dealership. I even saw a a kid completely total(after stalling his first attempt, he opened the throttle and dropped the clutch instead) a brand new CBR600RR 10 yards from where the salesperson handed him the keys out on the street. He was very lucky he flew off the bike and it didn't hit a parked car with him still on it. Shocked


I always offer free delivery to new riders, especially those idiots Jason's talking about Laughing



If you want more performance then the standard SS, like everyone has said: go with a novice double surface or the freedom. You might want to check out the UP Saturn. IMO it's the best performing novice double surface out there...Mr. Green .
(the Pulse is a slightly better beach glider though due to slightly lighter handling)

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Alan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #51   
fly,surf,&ski wrote:
Since I work at a motorcycle dealership I have seen the people Jason's talking about.


I guess it is sort of axiomatic that a sport like HG will attract the sort of personality the rest of us realize should be nowhere near it. From your stories it appears that this is even worse with motorcycles -- since they are on the ground there are fewer cultural barriers. Just takes a bit of money.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Is it dumb for me to get an intermediate HG as my first? Reply with quote #52   
jax_realm wrote:
I realize I am assuming slightly more risks by not buying a beginner glider first, but after my HG training, I'd prefer to get a glider that I really like. (my research leads me to think my ideal glider would be an intermediate one, it would also save money by eliminating the need to upgrade)

I believe I'm a quick learner, and I'm hoping HG training on a beginning rental might be enough for me on the beginner glider....

What do you think?

Depends on what you mean by intermediate.

You don't save money by breaking glider parts or body parts.

That said there are some intermediate gliders that, like the Pulse/Mark IV, that are dead simple to fly and land plus will give you wide safety margins at launch--good for thermaling as well.
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noman3
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Is it dumb for me to get an intermediate HG as my first? Reply with quote #53   
jax_realm wrote:
I realize I am assuming slightly more risks by not buying a beginner glider first, but after my HG training, I'd prefer to get a glider that I really like. (my research leads me to think my ideal glider would be an intermediate one, it would also save money by eliminating the need to upgrade)

I believe I'm a quick learner, and I'm hoping HG training on a beginning rental might be enough for me on the beginner glider....

What do you think?


fuk it man,i think you should save hella more money by just purchasing a top of the line bird.I would get a t2c or a combatL.I bought mine at a garage sale on my very first flight ever i jumped off walts point and did a 100 miler.This hanggliding s*** is easy and all these other guys telling you not to are just a bunch of granny's.Make sure you have atleast 30mph winds so you dont have to run.

up up and away!
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #54   
mapjim wrote:
In the UK, it's quite common for new pilots to get low-end intermediates (Stings, Rios, Sport 2's), in part because of the wind speeds here, but mostly because at lower wind speeds the air is frightening full of paragliders (like, ridiculously), and thus most HG pilots are only willing to fly in winds that are strong enough that most PG pilots stop flying (and that's pretty strong nowadays...I see a few PGs in 20mph wind sometimes). Elsewhere, people get SS's.


Sounds good to me, and safer.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote #55   
jimrooney wrote:

Here's a way I think about it.... if it were your glider... would you lend it to them?


I would be very reluctant to lend my glider (U2) to any pilot---intermediate or advanced.
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fly,surf,&ski
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #56   
Alan wrote:
fly,surf,&ski wrote:
Since I work at a motorcycle dealership I have seen the people Jason's talking about.


I guess it is sort of axiomatic that a sport like HG will attract the sort of personality the rest of us realize should be nowhere near it. From your stories it appears that this is even worse with motorcycles -- since they are on the ground there are fewer cultural barriers. Just takes a bit of money.


the best one is when is the guy that just told me he has had his 1000 cc sport bike well past 160 MPH on the freeway, and then tells me I'm the crazy one because I fly HGs crazy ROFL surrender

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #57   
Alex wrote:
jimrooney wrote:

Here's a way I think about it.... if it were your glider... would you lend it to them?


I would be very reluctant to lend my glider (U2) to any pilot---intermediate or advanced.


that where the unwritten rule of "Cash on Crash" comes into play.

Unfortunetly that is how my Xtralite 137 found a new owner at Fort Funston...... Shocked
(Luckily my buddy did walk away W/O injury from the wreckage though)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #58   
relate2 wrote:
The best wind speed I like flying my SS Malibu is in 20knots/23mph. I enjoy riding the elevator up and down and not having to worry about scratching for lift.


Coastal or inland? Any risk of the winds strengthening, and getting blown back, or not? I'm not familiar with the practical speed range of the Malibu. My old Calypso, although technically a DS, had a very narrow range of flying speeds...faster just meant down. Some people here do buy SS, including Malibu, and Target, but more typically DS, and I do feel safer with more penetration, since I rarely fly here below 15mph on the hill, and the winds here do change a lot throughout the day.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #59   
I should have been clearer, this is on the Coast. 20knots/23mph is my take off limit not the limit of the penetration of the wing. Of course it will not penetrate as good as a double surface wing but I have flown in winds away from the hill around 25knots/30mph no problem, again in coastal laminar winds, not inland.

Regarding being blown back, you really do have to make sure you fly out the front of the hill and not chase thermals over the back it is a single surface wing.

Lastly I bought a double surface wing straight out of training and it held me back a good two years with my skills and flying. Stick with a single surface wing and enjoy your stress free flying. Smile

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote #60   
relate2 wrote:
Regarding being blown back, you really do have to make sure you fly out the front of the hill and not chase thermals over the back it is a single surface wing.


The problem here, if one only flies when PGs are thin in the air, is that taking off in 18mph-20mph is quite normal...even inland...which might pick up to 25mph or so as you're flying. On my old Calypso, although a DS, that meant going backwards, or not forwards anyway...not a fun, safe experience.

relate2 wrote:
with a single surface wing and enjoy your stress free flying. Smile


I agree for most places. Sadly here, there's the stress of getting blown backwards, or of flying with 30 PGs (kinda like skiing moguls, except they move a bit faster than moguls), or of finding the narrow flying window between those states, which tends to overcome what I agree is otherwise nice low-stress flying. In the Alps or Pyrenees or Dolomites or southern Spain (or your part of Oz it sounds like), SS seems like a fine choice for fun easy flying.

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