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TomGalvin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
 #21 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| The presence of wheels on a pilot's base tube has the serious potential for lulling said pilot into a false sense of security as well - which may actually detract from their development of solid landing skills - or even (as mentioned above) skills useful for when things don't go quite right.. |
Using that logic we should not fly with helmets or chutes either.
This is a sport, that requires good judgment for risk management. If a comp pilot wants to strip sidewire insulation, forgo wheels, tweak wings, trim straps, that's their choice. Just don't pretend that it's not risky.
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
#22 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| The presence of wheels on a pilot's base tube has the serious potential for lulling said pilot into a false sense of security as well - which may actually detract from [a pilot's] development of solid landing skills - or even (as mentioned above) skills useful for when things don't go quite right.. |
Using that logic we should not fly with helmets or chutes either. |
Incorrect. My logic does not lead to such conclusions. However, since wheels make landings safer, perhaps pilots who install them can leave their helmets behind. Or don't wheels actually ensure any real guarantees of event free (head impact) landings?
And on a more practical note: I've had repeated use for my helmet - if only to keep my steel beener from cracking me in the back of the head while ground handling. So it has proven it's usefulness, repeatedly.
As to my chute, I've never used it. But I have had occasion to wonder if I might. And since I sometimes like to do aeros - which can (artificially) upset a HG, I like having it. Mostly, I give it no thought. However, if my wing breaks or otherwise stops flying and begins falling, gravity is guaranteed to take effect. A parachute just might nullify that inevitability (which includes fairly certain impact with the hard ground, from high altitude, at potentially deadly speeds).
And I don't think about using my chute to bring me down safely in case I don't flair just right - due to poor skills or planning. I have it in case my glider somehow fails to be air worthy at some significant altitude. Big difference.
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| This is a sport, that requires good judgment for risk management. If a comp pilot wants to strip sidewire insulation, forgo wheels, tweak wings, trim straps, that's their choice. Just don't pretend that it's not risky. |
I for one do not pretend such things are not "risky". However, with the exception of de-tuning a glider, I don't believe such mods increase risk significantly - for a properly skilled and experienced comp pilot. And I'm not even sure about some degree of glider de-tuning. I've heard that manufacturers inform comp pilots what can be done (and/or not done?) along those lines.
But then I'm not a competition pilot and don't do such things. What authority do I have to speak for them? The pilots who do such things should know what they are doing - or not do it. They are professionals (or utter fools, if not) and know (or should know) more about the edges of performance in HGs than most or all(?) weekend warrior pilots.
And Implying, as you do, that comp pilots lack good judgment (or deny whatever risks they may take) is likely to be an opinion based in ignorance. On the other hand, stating that your average low air time, weekend warrior HG pilot lacks adequate landing skills and, therefore, needs, or should have, wheels, . . . Well, that may just be based in personal knowledge. (?) It's not always best to project either type of conclusion upon others.
Still, it is the case in EVERY sport, which includes competitions, that boundaries will be pushed. But having wheels on your base tube during a HG comp is a lot like Lance Armstrong having training wheels on his racing bike during the Tour De France. Anyone can fall off a bike a skin their knee (or worse), but they don't keep the training wheels on in anticipation of such a remote (and trivial, or not?) possibility.
Learning the basic and fundamental skills involved in properly and safely landing a hang glider - on your feet - makes a reliance on base tube wheels unnecessary. Such a consistent ability also makes a (true) HG pilot.
PS - Gee, I just remembered, I never had training wheels either.
(I will always promote and advocate for base tube wheels in cases of pilot disability - or just old age?  )
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TomGalvin
3 thumbs up
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
#23 |
You just proved my point again. Reread what you wrote. The message that comes across is:
"Good pilots don't need wheels"
Wheels do not guarantee anything, nor do helmets, or parachutes. The problem is the last two don't hurt egos while the first one does. Peer pressure is one of the contributing causes of accidents in this sport. It often gets misreported as pilot error. That goes for both new pilots and old.
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Tom Benton
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:40 am Post subject: |
#24 |
Last edited by Tom Benton on Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JDyer
3 thumbs up
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 703
Location: Alberta Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:21 am Post subject: |
#25 |
| Quote: |
Good point ......As i recall one experianced pilots demize With Out Wheels...CHRIS MULLER
The smallest set of wheels would have saved him . |
Wrong
Regarding wheels, this debate comes up constantly and is a futile effort on both your parts
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Lobido
3 thumbs up
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 4099
Location: St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: |
#26 |
JD-
Why is that wrong about Chris? I had thought that would have been the case. What don't I know?
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rongleason
3 thumbs up
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: you had to have seen it |
#27 |
| IMHO wheels would not have saved Chris. If you saw what happened, I did, you would understand that wheels would have had no affect; he still would have augured in.
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Jeff OBrien
3 thumbs up
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
#28 |
Now we're adding fuel to a fire that we know won't be put out.
Wheels and Chris Muller are a couple of the most emotionally charged HG "issues". Shall we discuss the name change while we're at it?
The topics have been discussed ad nauseam.
Read the previous threads on wheels and make up your own opinion. Then keep it to yourself.
You can't make statements about an accident you never saw. It's all second hand info. you're making supposed objective observations on.
Chris Muller's accident is still a tender subject in a lot of people's minds two and a half years after his death. (including mine) Too emotionally charged. (see my last sentence)
Cheers,
Jeff
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rongleason
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: I can |
#29 |
| I did witness the accident and have made my own jodgements
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: |
#30 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
You just proved my point again. Reread what you wrote. The message that comes across is:
"Good pilots don't need wheels"
Wheels do not guarantee anything, nor do helmets, or parachutes. The problem is the last two don't hurt egos while the first one does. Peer pressure is one of the contributing causes of accidents in this sport. It often gets misreported as pilot error. That goes for both new pilots and old. |
I will hardily admit that my point, with slight modification, would be:
"Good pilots shouldn't need wheels"
As far as ego goes, if, because I, or anyone else, doesn't use wheels, our egos are thought to be over inflated, then there must be something to having a big ego because I have never needed them and have never (since leaving the training hill, or in hind sight, since) found them to have been likely to be useful.
I do believe that attaching some stigma to wheels is justified. Every pilot should keep in mind that:
"Pilots with weak or poorly developed landing skills may often rely on wheels."
Aviation is a serious activity. Landing any aircraft is the most serious part of such serious activity. Hang gliders are designed to be properly landed by way of, and upon, a pilot's own (optimally) two legs. All basic training and instruction is based on this simple, essential truth.
Therefore, promoting wheels and wheel landings - for the purpose of making up for poor, inconsistent, deficient HG landing skills - is to promote an activity that disregards the serious nature of, and seriously real and true skills needed to properly participate in, the form of aviation known as hang gliding.
In line with some degree of agreement -
A pilot who has wheels on his/her glider, yet has solid, consistent landing skills, will never be looked down upon BY ME (can't speak for others).
However -
A pilot who has wheels on his/her glider (and has no physical disability), yet sometimes or often relies on wheels because of poor, inconsistent landing skills, should have a diminished ego. If they feel "peer pressure" toward improving their landing skills, good for them. They will be a safer pilot if and/or when they make such improvements.
Such an individual (and group) pilot perspective helps make the whole sport of hang gliding better and safer.
And regarding Chris Muller -
He was demonstrating SERIOUSLY POOR judgment and utter DISREGARD for the serious nature of (SAFELY!) piloting a HG in close proximity to the ground. His young and immature ego crowded out his better judgment - to his ultimate and final detriment.
And to the degree to which peer pressure is involved in such an accident, a mature pilot (with experience and sound judgment) will not succumb to such pressure. I don't believe wheels would have saved Chris Muller, or any other like minded pilot, from that kind of fatal defect. He was an overly BOLD (and foolish) pilot who, as a result, has been irrevocably excluded from becoming an OLD pilot.
PS - I also (personally) accept and promote the use of seriously good (and big [10-12"]?) wheels for landings during tandem training. Still, a tandem pilot should be able to affect a good, no step flair with a passenger aboard - every time! That's how I was taught.
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Lobido
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 4099
Location: St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
#31 |
Jeff and Ron-
I did not mean to salt a wound. I know of the accident, but apparently did not read the threads that addressed the wheels issue, I seem more to recall the issue of where the bag was placed.
I did not see the accident. I have never read an explanation of why the wheels would not work in the situation he was in. That is why I asked, not to reargue an apparently painful bone of contention, but to understand a viewpoint I had not been exposed to.
Most issues are hashed and rehashed ad nauseum in forums, our collective memory does not seem to extend to the search button. But oft times the search button does not address, with particularity, the question posed, and even if it might, the interaction is the key to forum participation, or we would all simply be reading and submitting to wikipedia.
In short, I do not mean to reopen an argument, just to understand a point of view, directly from the person who just expressed it.
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TomGalvin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:42 am Post subject: |
#32 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| I do believe that attaching some stigma to wheels is justified. |
I am a libertarian at heart. If you don't like having wheels, that's perfectly fine by me. I am going to have wheels on my glider for the rest of my flying career. I don't plan to land on them. Just like I don't plan to throw my chute, or need my helmet.
But...
Why attach a stigma to a safety device?
Are you really trying to dissuade other pilots from having wheels mounted on their glider?
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Wingspan34
2 thumbs up
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
#33 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
But... Why attach a stigma to a safety device?
Are you really trying to dissuade other pilots from having wheels mounted on their glider? |
If you read my comments closely (or at all) you may find that my intention is to dissuade pilots from favoring wheels over solid, consistent landing skills.
I will quote myself so anyone can review -
| wingspan34 wrote: |
| A pilot who has wheels on his/her glider, yet has solid, consistent landing skills, will never be looked down upon BY ME. |
And a comment about Chris Muller -
Who is served when accurate information and details of a HG pilot's death (while hang gliding) is kept hidden - or not discussed?
Chris's accident was a while ago, so I can understand not wanting to bring up the details - again.
I see an unfortunate trend here. Back in May, Frank Goebel died during a scooter tow in Oklahoma. The circumstances were odd and there was reason to believe a medical issue was involved. Still, the local authorities FAILED to do an autopsy. As a result, none of us know for sure what the cause of this accident might have been.
More recently Mike Onarato had a serious accident at Morningside Flight Park in NH. This accident led to his death - effectively, it caused it. I have inquired about the specific circumstances and the most I have learned is that he was an experienced pilot flying a rigid wing. That the winds were switchable and that the accident happened on landing approach. I've also heard something to the effect that he was already on the ground when the situation occured. (??)
My best source said basically, that no one seemed to want to talk about what actually happened. There have been assumptions that no one saw what happened. This may be true, but I don't buy it. I've been to Morningside a number of times and it is a busy place. People watch pilots come in to land. Particularly when towing is the mode being used to get pilots into the air.
At the risk of offending some people, it actually makes mad that anyone would withhold information about such accidents. Even in the case of a rare or freak accident, lessons can be learned. I said the following a few months back in connection with Frank Goebel's fatal accident, and lack of autopsy -
When a pilot loses his or her life, the horrible cost incurred should motivate the investigating parties to find answers as to WHY it happened. In that way the rest of us may benefit from such a serious loss and perhaps avoid a similar fate. For something like this to happen and to have nothing but unanswered questions left behind, I think, trivializes the value of all human life.
When it comes down to HGing fatalities we should all take the attitude of scientists. Put emotion side. Future lives are at stake. Let one person's death grant the possible gift of life to someone else - who may/will take a lesson from the facts. "Band of Brothers" is a crock if we hide potential lessons of life, even if taken from unfortunate death.
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TomGalvin
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 3547
Location: ............... Pagosa Springs, Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
#34 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
| If you read my comments closely (or at all) you may find that my intention is to dissuade pilots from favoring wheels over solid, consistent landing skills. |
I did read them. They are unclear. I asked to clarify a point. You can have good consistent foot landings, and fly with wheels. I never advocated wheel landings.
I originally took issue with ridiculing pilots that use wheels. I took issue with it, being done in a forum heavily populated by new and aspiring pilots.
P.S. I have not, and will not comment on Chris Muller. It's not my place. I was not there. I don't know the details. Speaking ill of the dead is not something, I wish to see on hanggliding.org.
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sg
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Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 11030
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject: |
#35 |
Ridiculing pilots who use wheels as a crutch instead of learning to properly land their gliders is ok by me. But I will not pressure any pilot in any way that chooses to continue flying with wheels even after he/she has learned to land properly. Its an extra safety precaution that could help in some areas in some LZ's.
Personally, I do not fly with wheels, except when tandem, and my landing skills have always been very good. I take them extremely seriously, since I know launching and landing are the two times im most likely to be injured/killed.
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| Thomas Jefferson wrote: |
| All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. |
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
#36 |
| TomGalvin wrote: |
| Speaking ill of the dead is not something, I wish to see on hanggliding.org. |
So, I suppose your not opposed to others making the deceased's same mistakes? Seeing as how "speaking ill" precludes addressing the mistakes made by others, and from which the living may learn.
It's just superstitious BS.
"Hey buddy, pal, I'm not gonna tell you something that could save your life 'cause it could offend a dead person (or their memory?). "
  
When people involved in sports like Hang Gliding prefer to "protect" the memories of deceased people over protecting and promoting the health and safety of their fellow (living) participants, well, . . . at the very least, there's something significantly negative and anti-productive in that.
And when people push for minor safety issues one moment, but promote remaining mute on the cause of a fatal accident, the next, . . . that comes off as hypocrisy.
(*Stated as respectfully as possible*) The last time I checked, what one member does or does not prefer to "see" here does not determine what may or may not be written - by others who may disagree.
True safety is won through the dissemination of useful information, the proper teaching and learning of skills, and the achievement of experience - all of which lead to the acquisition of sound judgment, over time. Sticking little round thingies on your base tube may fit in there somewhere, but the "need" to be able to roll it in might very well be better addressed in other, more relevant and useful ways.
I won't guarantee it, but I'd like this to be the last thing I write on this subject.
**Heck. this thread began with a picture of a beautifully designed and sculpted base tube. (which I said someone will/might/should make wheels for! [no negativity meant or implied] Actual quote: "PS - Perhaps there's an option available of specially designed wheels to go with this sexy base tube (to keep it up off the rocks). And they will add another $500 to the cost! " See? )**
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Lobido
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Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 4099
Location: St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
#37 |
A friend of mine, Mick Cotts, is so fundamentallyy opposed to the use of wheels he has taken it to extremes:
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Wingspan34
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Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 5652
Location: Central NY
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:51 pm Post subject: |
#38 |
Now those wheels might actually "roll" over some of the furrows in the farmers' fields we land in around here. Thing is you've got to ignore wind direction and come in "cross furrow" - if you want them to work. 
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Tom Benton
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
#39 |
Last edited by Tom Benton on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DocSoc
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Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 1881
Location: Miami Beach
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
#40 |
| Wingspan34 wrote: |
More recently Mike Onarato had a serious accident at Morningside Flight Park in NH. This accident led to his death - effectively, it caused it. I have inquired about the specific circumstances and the most I have learned is that he was an experienced pilot flying a rigid wing. That the winds were switchable and that the accident happened on landing approach. I've also heard something to the effect that he was already on the ground when the situation occured. (??)
My best source said basically, that no one seemed to want to talk about what actually happened. There have been assumptions that no one saw what happened. This may be true, but I don't buy it. I've been to Morningside a number of times and it is a busy place. People watch pilots come in to land. Particularly when towing is the mode being used to get pilots into the air.
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Hey WS34, Debbie saw it she filmed all the way down until she turned the cam off to run to him... on her way there it happened, unfortunately she isn't an experianced HG pilot and can't specifically address the issue past what I already commented on in another forum.
True speculation are many, from the flaps didn't or werent deployed, to that one you mentioned about him being already ,to the more sensible one that an unfamiliar glider in a distressed LZ regardless of your skill level = bad.
I wasn't there, but is wife was... and it looked like what it looked to her...
s*** happens, and freak of nature is undominable...
I do agree with you that there had to be others, I don't know why anyone there wouln't want to share the details for the benefit of our community....
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